Private school fees in minister's funding claims'

[Rhiannon]

It wa a tongue in cheek comment, Prof D. And I have enough to do dealing with 3 kids on my own and trying to pay the bills. ‘Doing your political bit’ is a luxury for people who aren’t just about managing.

You don’t live where I do. Labour doesn’t exist. Week after week the local paper is filled with letters from middle aged men from the Tories and Lib Dem’s using it to point score and make snide comments. Meanwhile their work as a council gets criticised at national level for being so shit. That’s not me, that’s people who are in authority and who think they are doing a shit job.

[ProfessorDavey]

It wa a tongue in cheek comment, Prof D. And I have enough to do dealing with 3 kids on my own and trying to pay the bills. ‘Doing your political bit’ is a luxury for people who aren’t just about managing.

Fair enough - once your kids are older maybe get involved. There are plenty of just about managing people who are involved in politics, for example as councillors.

You don’t live where I do. Labour doesn’t exist. Week after week the local paper is filled with letters from middle aged men from the Tories and Lib Dem’s using it to point score and make snide comments. Meanwhile their work as a council gets criticised at national level for being so shit. That’s not me, that’s people who are in authority and who think they are doing a shit job.

These people don't have a right to be running the council - it is a democratic process. If it is so apparent that they are completely shit then kick them out and get in some new people (perhaps including you) who could do a better job. I think you live in a more rural area (Cambridgeshire?) - actually many rural areas have a much more established tradition of electing independent councillors than more urban areas where the traditional political parties have been more dominant.

[Rhiannon]

I’m
Not sure you get what just about managing means, Prof - it isn’t just financial, it’s time and energy. People like me can’t be stretched any thinner.

Yes, I live in a Tory rotten borough. I used to be a Green Party activist which helped get candidates to stand here but every non Tory and Lib Dem does so knowing they may as well not turn up, although at town level residents are gaining seats due to what is perceived as overdevelopment.

[ProfessorDavey]

I’m
Not sure you get what just about managing means, Prof - it isn’t just financial, it’s time and energy. People like me can’t be stretched any thinner.

I'm fully aware that the challenge isn't necessarily just financial - hence my comment that once your kids get older you might want to get involved as you have more time.

But as I said there are plenty of people in exactly your kind of circumstances who choose to get involved and make it work. You are perhaps thinking only of your local area where I imagine most councillors are relatively money rich and time rich (often retired or not needing to work), but that isn't the case everywhere. Where I live most of the councillors I know have full time jobs, quite a number with an additional 2 hours plus of commute time to London.

I work in amongst some of the most deprived communities in Europe - if you want to see just about struggling, come and look there - yet there are plenty of people who are prepared to put themselves forward as councillors - these people are both money poor and time poor.

Yes, I live in a Tory rotten borough. I used to be a Green Party activist which helped get candidates to stand here but every non Tory and Lib Dem does so knowing they may as well not turn up, although at town level residents are gaining seats due to what is perceived as overdevelopment.

It is only a rotten borough (as you call it) because these people get elected. It isn't a right for them to be councillors. If things are as useless as you suggest I cannot believe that you are the only person to think that. In which case make a change - put yourself forward, or support someone else (that is much less of a commitment). In many places it only takes a few hundred votes to get elected.

[Rhiannon]

I’m sorry, ProfD, but you are sounding very judgemental here. You probably don’t mean to but I think it’s best to drop it.

[ProfessorDavey]

I’m sorry, ProfD, but you are sounding very judgemental here. You probably don’t mean to but I think it’s best to drop it.

You are right - I wasn't meaning to be judgemental, but my comments were in response to you being clearly very judgemental about those involved in politics near you. And within a democratic context it is in your power (and others like you) to change that, and however stretched you might be there is a role you can play. In fact you've already indicated that you were involved with the Greens in the past. I was very clear that I recognised that you might not have the time to be a councillor now, but might once your kids are older, but even if you have only one hour a week, there are things that can be done to change the situation.

That's all I'm saying specifically, but there is also a broader point - being that I get very frustrated by people who sit on the sidelines carping on about politicians, but don't actually do anything about it. Don't forget that politicians aren't some kind of alien lifeform, they are people just like you and me.

[Rhiannon]

You are right - I wasn't meaning to be judgemental, but my comments were in response to you being clearly very judgemental about those involved in politics near you. And within a democratic context it is in your power (and others like you) to change that, and however stretched you might be there is a role you can play. In fact you've already indicated that you were involved with the Greens in the past. I was very clear that I recognised that you might not have the time to be a councillor now, but might once your kids are older, but even if you have only one hour a week, there are things that can be done to change the situation.

That's all I'm saying and there is also a broader point - being that I get very frustrated by people who sit on the sidelines carping on about politicians, but don't actually do anything about it. Don't forget that politicians aren't some kind of alien lifeform, they are people just like you and me.

Again you are sounding judgemental and patronising. It didn't help that yesterday I had a run in with someone from my local authority who clearly decided that because I am a single parent I must also be a thick as shit. I've known politicians all my life from parish councillors to government ministers, and the big problem (aside from the corruption at parish level, which is eye watering, and no, you can't do anything by trying to stand or vote for someone else because it is all stitched up in advance) is what I've already said - party politics. I know that politicians are 'people too' (do you have any idea how patronising that sounds?) but I don't think anyone would argue that we deserve better from our national government (who set out to deceive) and the opposition (who believe in magic money trees). And at local level party politics gets in the way of good governance.

[ProfessorDavey]

I know that politicians are 'people too' (do you have any idea how patronising that sounds?) ...

Which is purely a response to your comments that they are effectively all shit and that anyone who wants to be a politician should be banned. In light of those kinds of response it isn't unreasonable to point out that politicians are people too as your comments appear to indicate you to be unable to see that.

[ProfessorDavey]

Again you are sounding judgemental and patronising. It didn't help that yesterday I had a run in with someone from my local authority who clearly decided that because I am a single parent I must also be a thick as shit. I've known politicians all my life from parish councillors to government ministers, and the big problem (aside from the corruption at parish level, which is eye watering, and no, you can't do anything by trying to stand or vote for someone else because it is all stitched up in advance) is what I've already said - party politics. I know that politicians are 'people too' (do you have any idea how patronising that sounds?) but I don't think anyone would argue that we deserve better from our national government (who set out to deceive) and the opposition (who believe in magic money trees). And at local level party politics gets in the way of good governance.

But the only way any of this will change is for people like you step forward. I recognise the issue with party tribalism (although interestingly from my experience it isn't quite what it seems from the 'inside' with MPs and councillors working very well across party lines, albeit required to play the yah, boo for electoral purposes). But you are in the fortunate position (I think being in rural Cambridgeshire, correct me if I'm wrong) in being in a world where Independents still exist - I think there are Independents on most, if not all, the District councils in Cambridgeshire. Round here the only time you see an independent is when they are suspended from their party.

[Rhiannon]

Which is purely a response to your comments that they are effectively all shit and that anyone who wants to be a politician should be banned. In light of those kinds of response it isn't unreasonable to point out that politicians are people too as your comments appear to indicate you to be unable to see that.

Which was a tongue in cheek exasperated comment to Udayana when we both agreed we deserved better from our current deceiving, inept shower. Don't you agree that families deserve ministers who won't shit all over our education system?

And how exactly did you think I thought banning people who want to be politicians from being politicians would work? We'd end up with no politicians and no elections. I'm not sure why you didn't get that it was just at throwaway comment.

[Rhiannon]

But the only way any of this will change is for people like you step forward. I recognise the issue with party tribalism (although interestingly from my experience it isn't quite what it seems from the 'inside' with MPs and councillors working very well across party lines, albeit required to play the yah, boo for electoral purposes). But you are in the fortunate position (I think being in rural Cambridgeshire, correct me if I'm wrong) in being in a world where Independents still exist - I think there are Independents on most, if not all, the District councils in Cambridgeshire. Round here the only time you see an independent is when they are suspended from their party.

And again you are judging what 'people like me' are able to do without having the first idea what I have going on in my life.

And no, I don't live in Cambs.

[ProfessorDavey]

Which was a tongue in cheek exasperated comment to Udayana when we both agreed we deserved better from our current deceiving, inept shower. Don't you agree that families deserve ministers who won't shit all over our education system?

And how exactly did you think I thought banning people who want to be politicians from being politicians would work? We'd end up with no politicians and no elections. I'm not sure why you didn't get that it was just at throwaway comment.

It might have been a tongue in cheek comment, but you have then gone on relentlessly to be negative about politicians at all levels - government down to parish. Are you unable to see anyone in politics as doing a good job, or even being hard working and dedicated, even if you don't agree with their politics.

[Rhiannon]

It might have been a tongue in cheek comment, but you have then gone on relentlessly to be negative about politicians at all levels - government down to parish. Are you unable to see anyone in politics as doing a good job, or even being hard working and dedicated, even if you don't agree with their politics.

No I haven't.

The ones I met and liked at government level were Tories. If you want my honest opinion, they did what they could but where constrained by those above therm who were not so able and who cared more for headlines than policies and their outcomes.

Party politics - not politicians. It is where the rot sets in and stays.

Incidentally, a friend knew David Laws quite well. He took a huge pay cut in order to serve and from what I heard he was genuinely concerned to make a difference and was genuinely capable. I was sad to see him forced to resign in what felt like a show of power by the right wing press.

[ProfessorDavey]

... aside from the corruption at parish level, which is eye watering, and no, you can't do anything by trying to stand or vote for someone else because it is all stitched up in advance ...

How on earth can a parish council election be 'stitched up in advance' - anyone can stand, it costs nothing, there are far more independents so party allegiance isn't so much of an issue. And critically parish council elections often have tiny turnouts (sometimes well below 20%) with the winner often getting less than 10% of the electorate voting for them. If every there was an election ripe for someone breaking in this is it - you only need a decent local network mobilised to get a few hundred votes and you are in. In fact it isn't uncommon for parish council seats to be elected unopposed as there is only one person standing.

[ProfessorDavey]

No I haven't.

yes you have - this is the first time in this thread you have made any positive comment about politicians, in their role as a politician. Previously the only positive thing you have said is that you 'I’ve liked the government members I’ve met and spent time with', but that sounds like you liked them personally, rather than thinking that they were hard working, competent and dedicated (regardless of their political views). I'm pleased that you are now indicated that there are some who are hard working, dedicated and competent. My experience is that pretty well all are at least one of these things, some two or three - and I can at least recognise and respect this in people whose political views I do not agree with. An example being our local Tory district council leader, who lives in the same road as me and is a friend. I don't agree with his political views, but I cannot fault him on the hard work and dedication that he puts in to his role.

[Rhiannon]

How on earth can a parish council election be 'stitched up in advance' - anyone can stand, it costs nothing, there are far more independents so party allegiance isn't so much of an issue. And critically parish council elections often have tiny turnouts (sometimes well below 20%) with the winner often getting less than 10% of the electorate voting for them. If every there was an election ripe for someone breaking in this is it - you only need a decent local network mobilised to get a few hundred votes and you are in. In fact it isn't uncommon for parish council seats to be elected unopposed as there is only one person standing.

Try living where I do. You really have no clue.

[Rhiannon]

yes you have - this is the first time in this thread you have made any positive comment about politicians, in their role as a politician. Previously the only positive thing you have said is that you 'I’ve liked the government members I’ve met and spent time with', but that sounds like you liked them personally, rather than thinking that they were hard working, competent and dedicated (regardless of their political views). I'm pleased that you are now indicated that there are some who are hard working, dedicated and competent. My experience is that pretty well all are at least one of these things, some two or three - and I can at least recognise and respect this in people whose political views I do not agree with. An example being our local Tory district council leader, who lives in the same road as me and is a friend. I don't agree with his political views, but I cannot fault him on the hard work and dedication that he puts in to his role.

Please stop patronising me.

[ProfessorDavey]

Try living where I do. You really have no clue.

Then explain, because I am really struggling to understand.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that anyone can stand in a parish council election, provided they live in the parish area and subject to the normal disqualifications.

Secondly that in many parish councils, few councillors are affiliated with a political party, so you aren't fighting the 'party machine' (if that even exists. This certainly seems to be the case in Cambridgeshire. Also turnout is often woefully low so the winning candidate often gets less than 10% of the total electorate as a vote. Plus there is usually an 'everyone up' approach so all councillors are elected at the same time, meaning that there is often at least one existing councillor not standing again. So all it takes is for someone to be able to energise perhaps 7% of the electorate to support them, and they're in.

I cannot see how this can be stitched up.

[jeremyp]

Please stop patronising me.

| think it would be better for everyone if you stopped trying to shut people down by accusing them of being patronising.

[ProfessorDavey]

Try living where I do. You really have no clue.

You haven't indicated where you live, which is fine, so I'll follow on my Cambridgeshire theme - which seems appropriately rural etc.

So I've been perusing the most recent Parish Council election results in the various Parish Councils in the Huntingdonshire District.

https://applications.huntingdonshire.gov.uk/moderngov/mgElectionElectionAreaResults.aspx?EID=15&RPID=7634748

In virtually every case every candidate who stood was elected unopposed, as there were less candidates than vacancies - so effectively all you need to do to get 'elected' is fill in the paperwork to stand, that's it. You don't need to get a single vote. How on earth can that be a stitch up - if you want to be a Parish councillor and you live in that area, you can be one.

[ProfessorDavey]

Please stop patronising me.

I am not patronising you - I am just pointing out what you have said in a series of posts about politicians, which was unremittingly negative, except as I indicted. And that is negative top to bottom (from Government to Parish Council) and across parties. To remind you, and remember these are your words, not mine:

'I find dishonesty and deceit appallingly bad and whatever name is given to it doesn't really matter. We deserve better.'

'Maybe by banning anyone who wants to be a politician from actually being one?'

'From personal experience I’ve liked the government members I’ve met and spent time with (the only positive comment, but that reads liking them personally, not that they are hard working, dedicated or competent professionally). Local MP is a waste of space. Local councillors are appallingly tribal. Am I convinced any of them do a good job? No, but that may be the system. Party politics, and this is probably where some of my cynicism comes from. I dislike tribalism.'

'You don’t live where I do. Labour doesn’t exist. Week after week the local paper is filled with letters from middle aged men from the Tories and Lib Dem’s using it to point score and make snide comments. Meanwhile their work as a council gets criticised at national level for being so shit. That’s not me, that’s people who are in authority and who think they are doing a shit job.'

'Again you are sounding judgemental and patronising. It didn't help that yesterday I had a run in with someone from my local authority who clearly decided that because I am a single parent I must also be a thick as shit. I've known politicians all my life from parish councillors to government ministers, and the big problem (aside from the corruption at parish level, which is eye watering, and no, you can't do anything by trying to stand or vote for someone else because it is all stitched up in advance) is what I've already said - party politics. I know that politicians are 'people too' (do you have any idea how patronising that sounds?) but I don't think anyone would argue that we deserve better from our national government (who set out to deceive) and the opposition (who believe in magic money trees). And at local level party politics gets in the way of good governance.'

'Which was a tongue in cheek exasperated comment to Udayana when we both agreed we deserved better from our current deceiving, inept shower. Don't you agree that families deserve ministers who won't shit all over our education system?'

Finally you made a vaguely complementary comment about David Laws, but even that reads as a second hand complement:

'Incidentally, a friend knew David Laws quite well. He took a huge pay cut in order to serve and from what I heard he was genuinely concerned to make a difference and was genuinely capable. I was sad to see him forced to resign in what felt like a show of power by the right wing press.'

So you claim:
'Maybe by banning anyone who wants to be a politician from actually being one?' to be a tongue in cheek comment - fair enough, but what about all the other comments.

[ProfessorDavey]

Incidentally, a friend knew David Laws quite well. He took a huge pay cut in order to serve and from what I heard he was genuinely concerned to make a difference and was genuinely capable. I was sad to see him forced to resign in what felt like a show of power by the right wing press.

I'd like to return to this one. Specifically that most of us see politicians through the lens of the media and I think that can give a very different impression than if you actually know what they are like. I suspect most of us would struggle to cope with the relentless media barrage that politician have to face.

So my own example involves David Laws immediate predecessor as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Liam Byrne. Most people will probably know him for the letter he left on leaving office (I'll come back to this). I know him for a couple of years before he was elected when he lived locally and was a major organiser of our local Labour party, along with working for the central party in London. Firstly he was a very likeable guy with a excellent dry sense of humour - but more importantly he was one of the most professional, organised and effective people I've had the pleasure of meeting. He would sort out hugely complicated things effortlessly and efficiency with the minimum of fuss. He was also very clearly in politics to 'make a difference'.

I cannot speak more highly of him - the kind of person you'd hire in a flash. Yet the view through the media lens is entirely different.

And on that letter - I've no doubt it was meant as a humorous and generous (and private) touch to his successor - clearly a serious tactical error as he should have realised that the Tories and LibDems would portray it as a serious comment in transition.

[Udayana]

Clearly someone could be a wonderful politician: friendly, professional, organised and effective, be willing to go whatever distance to sort out problems for constituents, but the policies and systems we end up with can still be a mess.

Laws deliberately lied on his expense claims - that is not acceptable in any position.

Byrne was in various ministerial roles from 2006 to 2010 - I can't believe he was in any position long enough to do anything useful and even so was involved in a number of cockups and stupid plans.

We do deserve better, although as the saying goes we "get the government we deserve". The "do it yourself" idea is unlikely to work either. Personally, I'd be really hopeless, initially well meaning but, in the end, really terrible. Probably another Stalin if managing to get in and keep hold of power.

 It is all about communication and compromise: We can complain about the tribal party system, but parties are inevitable in any system of democratic government. As non-politicians we must complain about abuses of the system (and logic) by those we have elected (even if we didn't vote for them) and keep on their backs to ensure open and rational fair decisions and government - a free media are a key part of this.   
 

[ProfessorDavey]

Clearly someone could be a wonderful politician: friendly, professional, organised and effective, be willing to go whatever distance to sort out problems for constituents, but the policies and systems we end up with can still be a mess.

Laws deliberately lied on his expense claims - that is not acceptable in any position.

Byrne was in various ministerial roles from 2006 to 2010 - I can't believe he was in any position long enough to do anything useful and even so was involved in a number of cockups and stupid plans.

We do deserve better, although as the saying goes we "get the government we deserve". The "do it yourself" idea is unlikely to work either. Personally, I'd be really hopeless, initially well meaning but, in the end, really terrible. Probably another Stalin if managing to get in and keep hold of power.

 It is all about communication and compromise: We can complain about the tribal party system, but parties are inevitable in any system of democratic government. As non-politicians we must complain about abuses of the system (and logic) by those we have elected (even if we didn't vote for them) and keep on their backs to ensure open and rational fair decisions and government - a free media are a key part of this.

Some very astute comments there.

I think part of the problem is that there is so much scrutiny, from both the media, but also from opposition politicians that it is pretty well impossible to be seen as doing a good job. And it is the perception that kills. So it may be that the performance of an individual that in any other professional context would be considered great or exemplary (as there is little external scrutiny) is considered to be a failure in a politician.

And as a politician you not only are required to do your job (e.g. as a minister) which often involves making really tough decisions that many people will not like, but also having one eye on the electorate, because you'll be up for election again in a few years.

Perhaps it is just an impossible job and I do wonder why anyone would want to become an elected politician.

So you are probably right that we get the politicians we deserve, and being relentlessly critical and negative makes it more likely that we will get worse politicians as we will simply reduce the 'talent pool' as more people think "why on earth would I put myself up for public office if all that will happen is I will be shot down at every turn'.

I think the corrosive zeitgeist pervades all levels - I was really shocked looking at the Huntingdonshire Parish Council details - effectively a whole layer of elected government where the can't even get enough people even to put themselves forward to fill the available places. That's really shocking, and not just in one Parish council ward, but in pretty well all of them.

[Udayana]

PD, I can't say I'm surprised by your observations on the Huntingdon parish councils.

In my area,  a parish council was established in 2010 following a ballot (I voted against having one).

Apart from one ward,  each ward returns either all LibDem or Conservative candidates. At least two of the parish councilors are also borough councilors.
 
No members of the public ever turn up to a meeting mainly as (from the minutes) they are clearly well beyond tedious. The main items of discussion are the accounts and maintenance of the two sports / park buildings the parish council are responsible for. Frankly, the meetings of the local scout exec were/are much more interesting, useful and significant.

One good outcome was that a friend of ours was taken on part time (paid) as clerk after redundancy from his previous job.