Same Sex Marriage Re-Visited.

[jeremyp]

It isn't just gay people who support extending marriage to allow same sex couples to marry - millions of heterosexual people (including me) do too.

I prefer:

"It isn't just gay people who support lifting the restrictions on marriage to allow same sex couples to marry".

I think that isn a fairer description of the moral, if not the legal position.

[jeremyp]

Fair enough. Is it true that a minority of homosexuals supported it?

You talk about it as though it were compulsory.

[ProfessorDavey]

I prefer:

"It isn't just gay people who support lifting the restrictions on marriage to allow same sex couples to marry".

I think that isn a fairer description of the moral, if not the legal position.

True enough

[Gordon]

Moderator:

We seem to have wandered well off topic since I don't think SSM is all that germane to Brexit.

Spud.

If you want to continue this, and assuming others have a appetite for yet another thread on SSM, let me know by PM and I'll create a new thread comprising the recent SSM posts in this thread.

Meantime, in this thread, can we all please return to the thorny issue of Brexit.

[Rhiannon]

Marriage equality is less depressing.

[Gordon]

Moderator:

These posts on the subject of Same Sex Marriage were originally a derail on the main 'Brexit' thread and have been split into this thread at the request of Spud in order that discussion can continue.

[Spud]

Thanks Gordon.

The very year that this poll was carried out:

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/poll-gay-marriage

Which demonstrated that public supported same sex marriage by a huge majority - 73% to 24%. So equating that to the UK population, I make that 43 million people in the UK supporting same sex marriage, hardly a minority of a minority is it Spud.

Was just wondering whether interviewing just over 1,000 people is very significant - of course that may be one of many similar polls, but on its own it doesn't beat the coalition for marriage's petition.

[Roses]

What I find tragic in this day and age is that some people think being gay is wrong or abnormal. Gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals, including the right to marry, if they so wish.

[Sebastian Toe]

Thanks Gordon.
Was just wondering whether interviewing just over 1,000 people is very significant - of course that may be one of many similar polls, but on its own it doesn't beat the coalition for marriage's petition.

If you want to play a numbers game then  what beats the petition is the number of people who didn't sign it!

[Gordon]

Thanks Gordon.
Was just wondering whether interviewing just over 1,000 people is very significant - of course that may be one of many similar polls, but on its own it doesn't beat the coalition for marriage's petition.

It was a survey by a reputable agency using a sampling method: in the link they say 'Ipsos MORI interviewed a representative sample of 1,023 adults aged 18+ across Great Britain. Interviews were conducted by telephone 8th to 10th December 2012. Data are weighted to match the profile of the population.', and they also provide a link showing the questions asked and associated responses.

As surveys go it does seem likely to be a reasonable summary of opinion back in 2012.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

The EU has recently ordered Romania to grant automatic residency to the American so-called husband of a Romanian man, even though Romania does not allow same sex marriages. The actions of the EU in ordering Romania to recognize that same sex marriage before consulting the people of Romania (who, it appears, aren't that bothered - see results of yesterday's referendum) appear undemocratic.

To quote Eyore: "I don't like to mention it, but... I just, do mention it".

It is not unknown for Romania to hold referendums and then to void them through lack of turnout, although usually those are attempts to oust government figures.

[Spud]

So to cut a long story short... we don't think ssm caused Brexit!

[Gordon]

So to cut a long story short... we don't think ssm caused Brexit!

I don't think anyone ever did think that.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I don't think anyone ever did think that.

I think what Spud is trying to say is that SSM was not in anybody's manifesto, there was no referendum on the same, and that conservative anger at the same became manifested into the "Out" campaign.

It would make an interesting newspaper article.

[Gordon]

I think what Spud is trying to say is that SSM was not in anybody's manifesto, there was no referendum on the same, and that conservative anger at the same became manifested into the "Out" campaign.

It would make an interesting newspaper article.

As far as I'm aware referenda are only used for major constitutional proposals and that changes to marriage laws are within the remit of UK parliaments. I'd be surprised if anybody conflated SSM and Brexit since they are clearly different issues: one dealing with marriage equality and the other with political governance arrangements.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

As far as I'm aware referenda are only used for major constitutional proposals and that changes to marriage laws are within the remit of UK parliaments. I'd be surprised if anybody conflated SSM and Brexit since they are clearly different issues: one dealing with marriage equality and the other with political governance arrangements.

That is being sensible, and not everybody is sensible.

[SteveH]

What I find tragic in this day and age is that some people think being gay is wrong or abnormal. Gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals, including the right to marry, if they so wish.

I agree with all of this, except for "...or abnormal". Homosexuality is abnormal, whether "normal" is defined as "average" or "perfect". Only about 2% of people are gay, so it clearly isn't average, and anatomically it is pretty obvious that men and women complement each other in a way that two men or two women don't. By all means give gays equal rights, including marriage, but don't pretend that it is normal. What matters is that it is harmless to others and fulfilling for gays themselves.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree with all of this, except for "...or abnormal". Homosexuality is abnormal, whether "normal" is defined as "average" or "perfect". Only about 2% of people are gay, so it clearly isn't average, and anatomically it is pretty obvious that men and women complement each other in a way that two men or two women don't. By all means give gays equal rights, including marriage, but don't pretend that it is normal. What matters is that it is harmless to others and fulfilling for gays themselves.

You are confusing abnormal with minority.

By your definition all sorts of human attributes and aspects of behaviour are abnormal - including people with blue eyes, or red hair or white, or buddhist, or left-handed etc, etc.

That an attribute or behaviour or belief is only demonstrated by a minority doesn't make it abnormal, which has a pejorative meaning.

[Roses]

I agree with all of this, except for "...or abnormal". Homosexuality is abnormal, whether "normal" is defined as "average" or "perfect". Only about 2% of people are gay, so it clearly isn't average, and anatomically it is pretty obvious that men and women complement each other in a way that two men or two women don't. By all means give gays equal rights, including marriage, but don't pretend that it is normal. What matters is that it is harmless to others and fulfilling for gays themselves.

Even if there are less gay people than straight, it doesn't mean homosexuality is an abnormality. Would you say people who are left handed are abnormal because they are in the minority?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

You are confusing abnormal with minority.

By your definition all sorts of human attributes and aspects of behaviour are abnormal - including people with blue eyes, or red hair or white, or buddhist, or left-handed etc, etc.

That an attribute or behaviour or belief is only demonstrated by a minority doesn't make it abnormal, which has a pejorative meaning.

No.

Abnormal behaviour simply means that it is a behaviour practised by a minority.

Steve H is correct, you are wrong.

[Gordon]

No.

Abnormal behaviour simply means that it is a behaviour practised by a minority.

Steve H is correct, you are wrong.

I am in a minority of people who ride motorcycles regularly: does this mean I am abnormal?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

You have the statistics to prove that statement?

[ProfessorDavey]

No.

Abnormal behaviour simply means that it is a behaviour practised by a minority.

Steve H is correct, you are wrong.

Wrong - virtually any definition of abnormal you choose includes a pejorative, and negative slant. So for example:

'different from what is usual or average, especially in a way that is bad: (Cambridge Dictionary)
'Deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying' (Oxford English Dictionary)

The neutral, non-pejorative term is uncommon, which doesn't carry any negative, pejorative connotations.

So, sorry I'm right, Steve and you are wrong.

By the way, by Steve's view being an Orthodox Christian is abnormal (I think that's what you are Humph - please correct me if I'm wrong), with only perhaps a few % of the world population being so. Would you feel comfortable with being described as abnormal Humph on that basis - I suspect you might.

[Gordon]

You have the statistics to prove that statement?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/312594/motorcycle-and-car-registrations-in-the-united-kingdom/

Currently there are 31.2 million registered cars compared to 1.2 million motorcycles.   

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Thank you.