Same Sex Marriage Re-Visited.

[jeremyp]

Nope - not done.

Not an ethical question is it? Gay conversion therapy. It's damaging and horrific.

It is an ethical question, but it is one with a fairly obvious answer. I don't think there is any doubt that it can be damaging and horrific, as you say and is, therefore, ethically wrong.

[jeremyp]

The questions are this how should you approach someone who wants this treatment.

If somebody wants conversion therapy, I'd say, ultimately, it is their choice. However, before they go through with it, I think their motivations need to be explored thoroughly. If they are doing it only because they have been told that God hates them for who they are, I think counselling might be more productive and less dangerous.

[wigginhall]

Conversion therapy is banned by all reputable psychological disciplines and training organizations.  If someone wants to visit a dodgy outfit, you can't stop them.  Although the govt is supposed to be planning a ban, although I don't see how it would work, as it's very vague.

But therapists often work with clients with confused sexuality.  The thing that distinguished the conversion people is that they said being gay was a bad thing, and probably results from abuse.  Immediately, this is unethical conduct, and you would be disbarred for it.  But again, there are dodgy people who don't care about ethics.

Actually, I think the Royal College of Psychiatrists supports a total ban.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Conversion therapy is banned by all reputable psychological disciplines and training organizations.  If someone wants to visit a dodgy outfit, you can't stop them.  Although the govt is supposed to be planning a ban, although I don't see how it would work, as it's very vague.

But therapists often work with clients with confused sexuality.  The thing that distinguished the conversion people is that they said being gay was a bad thing, and probably results from abuse.  Immediately, this is unethical conduct, and you would be disbarred for it.  But again, there are dodgy people who don't care about ethics.

Actually, I think the Royal College of Psychiatrists supports a total ban.

What about somebody who wants some kind of therapy so as to reduce a fetishistic longing?

[Rhiannon]

What about somebody who wants some kind of therapy so as to reduce a fetishistic longing?

Are you saying that same sex attraction is a fetish?

[SteveH]

Are you saying that same sex attraction is a fetish?

No, he didn't say that. I don't know whether there is any effective therapy for fetishes, but they are generally harmless.

[Rhiannon]

No, he didn't say that. I don't know whether there is any effective therapy for fetishes, but they are generally harmless.

He can answer for himself. He does seem to be linking the two, otherwise it's just whataboutery.

[Roses]

He can answer for himself. He does seem to be linking the two, otherwise it's just whataboutery.

I agree.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Conversion therapy is banned by all reputable psychological disciplines and training organizations.  If someone wants to visit a dodgy outfit, you can't stop them.  Although the govt is supposed to be planning a ban, although I don't see how it would work, as it's very vague.

But therapists often work with clients with confused sexuality.  The thing that distinguished the conversion people is that they said being gay was a bad thing,

I have taken part in this discussion on the basis that there is a person wanting Conversion therapy.
So. For whatever reason the person seeking this thinks that being gay is a bad thing.

How are they to be approached?

What if they do not think that being gay is a bad thing....but it is not for them?

What if those offering Conversion therapy do not say that being gay is a bad thing?
After all those offering gender reassignment do not say to a man seeking to become a woman that men are bad?

[Aruntraveller]

I have taken part in this discussion on the basis that there is a person wanting Conversion therapy.
So. For whatever reason the person seeking this thinks that being gay is a bad thing.

How are they to be approached?

What if they do not think that being gay is a bad thing....but it is not for them?

What if those offering Conversion therapy do not say that being gay is a bad thing?
After all those offering gender reassignment do not say to a man seeking to become a woman that men are bad?

And what if the moon were made of cheese?

Conversion therapy for gay people is ineffective. That is, it doesn't work. The evidence is it does harm to those who receive it, and to those around them such as women who marry gay men who have undergone conversion therapy and find out 5, 10, 15 years down the line that whoops, hubby is playing hide the sausage with their best friend.

The motives of the people involved don't matter. It doesn't work and it causes harm. What are you not getting?

[wigginhall]

Yes, as Trent said.  Why are you defending conversion therapy, Vlad?  And I worked with a number of married people, where the husband went straight, and it causes much unhappiness down the line.  You can't become straight, or become gay.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And what if the moon were made of cheese?

Conversion therapy for gay people is ineffective. That is, it doesn't work. The evidence is it does harm to those who receive it, and to those around them such as women who marry gay men who have undergone conversion therapy and find out 5, 10, 15 years down the line that whoops, hubby is playing hide the sausage with their best friend.

The motives of the people involved don't matter. It doesn't work and it causes harm. What are you not getting?

But the Libertarian argument which you are arguing in the face of might say that as long as it is wanted people are entitled to continue to try to make it work.

Also Trent I would move that "not working" is a poor thing to argue because of the Libertarian argument about getting things to work.

Also objections to a therapy not working argument are that you may only have the same revulsion for at as we all have for medieval barber surgery namely it didn't work, was barbaric and performed by the superstitious......remove those and we love surgery.

Your better argument is not trying one from clever reasoning but a moral/ emotional/ community argument. Own up to that and you won't make yourself look such an intellectual totalitarian when discussing with dispassionate philosophy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, as Trent said.  Why are you defending conversion therapy, Vlad?  And I worked with a number of married people, where the husband went straight, and it causes much unhappiness down the line.  You can't become straight, or become gay.

I have not made any endorsement of Conversion therapy since my approach is Socratic.

But if you are hassling me into some conclusion without answering my questions,here it is.

Trent argues from a deep emotional concern for his own community......that seems laudable.
He also is acting most effectively from a moral standpoint.....that seems laudable too. He can't though
Convince anybody that he is a moral relativist.

Such an expression of wishing to protect your community is the basis of not wanting to marry out and fear of apostasy.

Imho attempts on here to shut down discussion on this thread are intellectual fascism.

Gordon took the Libertarian position and that's why I have challenged and questioned it.

Finall you have attacked me but not Jeremy. Explain or it looks like you are merely indulging in a bit of specific Antichristian on Christian action.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

He can answer for himself. He does seem to be linking the two, otherwise it's just whataboutery.

No I was not linking the two, I was asking a question. As Steve H has written, some fetishes are harmless, somebody with a stiletto fetish can probably go through life without offending anybody. But somebody with a fetish for looking up skirts on escalators may welcome some kind of therapy, what does Wiggy or anybody else think of that situation?

[Roses]

No I was not linking the two, I was asking a question. As Steve H has written, some fetishes are harmless, somebody with a stiletto fetish can probably go through life without offending anybody. But somebody with a fetish for looking up skirts on escalators may welcome some kind of therapy, what does Wiggy or anybody else think of that situation?

This thread is about homosexuality, which is not a fetish, and same sex marriage, not inappropriate sexual behaviour like up skirting.

[wigginhall]

Lots of therapists deal with sexual issues, and of course, there are sex therapists, such as Pamela Stephenson.  You just have to avoid cranks, I think Relate offer it, and NHS, and Tavistock..

[Gordon]

Gordon took the Libertarian position and that's why I have challenged and questioned it.

Gordon also qualified this by pointing out that being libertarian in outlook does not imply recklessness or that 'anything goes', and noted that those considering radical options should seek qualified advice.

Try reading for comprehension in future.
 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Gordon also qualified this by pointing out that being libertarian in outlook does not imply recklessness or that 'anything goes', and noted that those considering radical options should seek qualified advice.

I don't believe I expressed support for 'recklessness or anything goes or disagreement with your last statement.

[Gordon]

I don't believe I expressed support for 'recklessness or anything goes or disagreement with your last statement.

Super - so why are you banging on about it still?

[Aruntraveller]

He can't though
Convince anybody that he is a moral relativist.

I wasn't aware I was trying to - but thanks for the heads up.

And for your information homosexuality is not a religious or political belief/principle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I wasn't aware I was trying to - but thanks for the heads up.

And for your information homosexuality is not a religious or political belief/principle.

What bearing do you feel that has on anything I've said?

[SteveH]

No I was not linking the two, I was asking a question. As Steve H has written, some fetishes are harmless, somebody with a stiletto fetish can probably go through life without offending anybody. But somebody with a fetish for looking up skirts on escalators may welcome some kind of therapy, what does Wiggy or anybody else think of that situation?

I don't think up-skirting counts as a fetish. Sexual fetishes are sexual attraction to specific body parts, such as feet or hair, or to amputation stumps or deformities or disabilities, or to obesity, or to substances such as leather or rubber. Fetishists do not, on the whole, make a nuisance of themselves.

[Aruntraveller]

What bearing do you feel that has on anything I've said?

The reference to apostasy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The reference to apostasy

As in this

Trent argues from a deep emotional concern for his own community......that seems laudable.
………….Such an expression of wishing to protect your community is the basis of not wanting to marry out and fear of apostasy.

[Aruntraveller]

As in this

Indeed. Apologies I misread it somehow.