The internet as metaphor.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

For the garden of Eden that is.

A perfectly good and serviceable tool which experienced corruption which now pervades it.

I'm not talking about bugs or glitches but viruses, trojans etc.

I challenge posters to come up with a better analogy.

[ekim]

Another analogy might be extracted from its title 'net' or world wide web which can trap the unwary and be used by the variety of spiders which grow fat on their entrapment.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Another analogy might be extracted from its title 'net' or world wide web which can trap the unwary and be used by the variety of spiders which grow fat on their entrapment.

Very good.
That though would suggest that the creators of the web had such entrapment in mind when creating it rather than enthusiastic wanting the world to be a better place and the internet a chance for a new future etc, etc, etc.

In other words the fat spiders created it rather than a tufty tailed wide eyed Berners Lee.

[Roses]

For the garden of Eden that is.

A perfectly good and serviceable tool which experienced corruption which now pervades it.

I'm not talking about bugs or glitches but viruses, trojans etc.

I challenge posters to come up with a better analogy.

The Internet exists, the Garden of Eden didn't, imo.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The Internet exists, the Garden of Eden didn't, imo.

Your 'o' is hardly controversial.

The story of Eden and the known history of the internet are examples of how faith in the highest abilities and aspirations of humanity are self disappointing.

humans had the highest ideals for the internet only to be frustrated and confounded by, er, the lowest ideals of humanity.

[Rhiannon]

No they really aren't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No they really aren't.

Are you able to offer anymore than that?

[Roses]

Your 'o' is hardly controversial.

The story of Eden and the known history of the internet are examples of how faith in the highest abilities and aspirations of humanity are self disappointing.

humans had the highest ideals for the internet only to be frustrated and confounded by, er, the lowest ideals of humanity.

Did we really have the highest ideal for the internet, I don't think that is true. BTW as this has nothing to do with religion why isn't it on the science and technology board? Oh whoops you will accuse me of bullying you! 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Did we really have the highest ideal for the internet, I don't think that is true. BTW as this has nothing to do with religion why isn't it on the science and technology board?

No I can see your point and one can certainly imagine dark thoughts lurking in the minds of at least some of those responsible for the invention. However wasn't the internet originally a channel for free exchange of scientific information? Certainly no dark motive there and yet what starts as a good thing is certainly subverted to the bad.

And now people are talking of imposing rules on it.

It isn't on the science and technology board because I am comparing the internet with the story of the garden of eden and am talking about moral good and bad.

In other words what place does the garden of eden and good behaviour and bad behaviour on the science and technology board?


Were the writers of the story of eden aware that a new world...the internet, was created good and went bad there would be a chorus of ''we told them so'' from them.

[Rhiannon]

Are you able to offer anymore than that?

To what? There's no substance to your OP.

[jeremyp]

For the garden of Eden that is.

A story in which humans were  confined to a verdant prison by an evil overlord and doomed to mow his lawn for eternity. It ends happily though, as he accidentally released them from their slavery after being enraged by the consequences of the curiosity that he created them with.

I don't see the Internet as an analogy for that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A story in which humans were  confined to a verdant prison by an evil overlord and doomed to mow his lawn for eternity.

You should get that published Jeremy since I don't know of any other story like it.

[jeremyp]

You should get that published Jeremy since I don't know of any other story like it.

It's the story of the Fall when looked at with an objective eye.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's the story of the Fall when looked at with an objective eye.

Verdant prison? The inmates found themselves very rapidly out the door.
Evil overlord? I've seen antitheists say he was evil because he evicted mankind. If you are saying that eviction was good then how can he be an evil overlord?
Presumably everything would be OK if humanity had been out of the garden of Eden but still able to enjoy all the benefits of the garden of eden.

In what way, then, is your eye objective ?

[Rhiannon]

The garden here is a metaphor for ignorance. Basically Adam and Eve acquire knowledge and grow up. That's their only sin. TO become aware, of what they are and their relationship to God. It's a liberation, and one we all have to go through when we leave childhood behind.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The garden here is a metaphor for ignorance. Basically Adam and Eve acquire knowledge and grow up. That's their only sin. TO become aware, of what they are and their relationship to God. It's a liberation, and one we all have to go through when we leave childhood behind.

That is certainly a far later interpretation of the story which I believe has found it's way into Jewish traditions who believe that God's greatest attribute given to man is chutzpah. (Rather than the more consistently biblical meaning of alienation man against God, Man against women, man against man, man against himself and Man against nature.)

But I don't think even that's quite what you had in mind. .

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Howard Jacobson ties Brexit in with Eden and shows his understanding of the Garden of Eden story.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/21/even-as-we-rail-at-our-leaders-we-fail-to-address-our-own-manifest-flaws

[jeremyp]

Verdant prison? The inmates found themselves very rapidly out the door.

Yes, I believe I already mentioned that.

Evil overlord? I've seen antitheists say he was evil because he evicted mankind. If you are saying that eviction was good then how can he be an evil overlord?

Well being an evil overlord doesn't imply intelligence. The god in the story really isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

Presumably everything would be OK if humanity had been out of the garden of Eden but still able to enjoy all the benefits of the garden of eden.

What are those benefits? The garden of Eden was no European Union.

In what way, then, is your eye objective ?

I can read the story from many different perspectives. You are limited to your Christian propaganda.

[jeremyp]

That is certainly a far later interpretation of the story

Actually there is some evidence that the original story from which Jewish tradition borrowed has exactly that interpretation.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, I believe I already mentioned that.
Well being an evil overlord doesn't imply intelligence. The god in the story really isn't the sharpest tool in the box.
What are those benefits? The garden of Eden was no European Union.
I can read the story from many different perspectives. You are limited to your Christian propaganda.

The benefits are simply unbroken communion with God, no alienation with self or others or between sexes, or between mankind and nature.

You seem to want the benefits presumably of no alienation but wish to be alienated with God.
We know the result of leaving Eden....since we seem to have lost or losing the benefits.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Actually there is some evidence that the original story from which Jewish tradition borrowed has exactly that interpretation.

Let's have it then.

I have to disagree since one can only arrive at that interpretation with massive bowdlerisation of the rest of genesis.

[jeremyp]

The benefits are simply unbroken communion with God,

But as we have already established, communion with God in that context meant mowing his lawn and tending his roses for eternity. Doesn't seem like as great deal to me.

no alienation with self or others or between sexes, or between mankind and nature.

I don't feel alienated from any of those things.

You seem to want the benefits presumably of no alienation but wish to be alienated with God.
We know the result of leaving Eden....since we seem to have lost or losing the benefits.

I am alienated from God. The only real effect I have found is not feeling guilty about lying in on  Sunday morning instead of going to church. Plus I don't have to come on forums like this and explain away awkward facts like how my god doesn't appear to exist and why his policy on crime is totally irrational. You should try it, it's quite liberating.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But as we have already established, communion with God in that context meant mowing his lawn and tending his roses for eternity. Doesn't seem like as great deal to me.
I don't feel alienated from any of those things.I am alienated from God. The only real effect I have found is not feeling guilty about lying in on  Sunday morning instead of going to church. Plus I don't have to come on forums like this and explain away awkward facts like how my god doesn't appear to exist and why his policy on crime is totally irrational. You should try it, it's quite liberating.

The simple objection to you here Jeremy is what does God need with a lawn or roses?
In other words the garden and the upkeep of it is for us.
Which leaves us with your only real objection....the walking with God.

As for your claim of harmony with your fellow man, well we can only judge that by the tone of your posts and I don't think any of us can claim harmony with nature.

[jeremyp]

The simple objection to you here Jeremy is what does God need with a lawn or roses?

You tell me. It's not me that says God kept man to be his gardener, it's your precious Bible.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it." NRSV

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You tell me. It's not me that says God kept man to be his gardener, it's your precious Bible.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it." NRSV

You are the one suggesting God needs a Garden not me so you ought to be justifying thatI would have thought.
All your biblical quote tells us is that we were placed in a relationship with God and nature which we have to cultivate or maintain.
I'm sure you agree we have to maintain nature...and haven't made a good fist of it.
Why are you not prepared to do the same with God.

If man is not to look after his environment, what alternative is there? Are you suggesting the pillaging or neglect of the environment is a good thing?