What's the power behind Christian Prayer?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This was a question from another poster on another thread so I opened this to prevent inadvertent deflection from the question ''Do hexes work''.


The power behind Christian prayer is of course God.


As CS Lewis said prayer changes us not God.


So no one could try whip up a curse without the knowledge that anything supernatural would have to be through God and to God's specifications and God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.


The OT has a few examples of prophets who wanted to rain down what not on their enemies and Got peed off with God when he refused.


Can prayer be used as mind gaming? In the long history of Christianity I'm sure some have found a way to pervert it into that.

[Nearly Sane]

What would does it mean that prayers 'work'? How would you test that they work?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What would does it mean that prayers 'work'? How would you test that they work?

Reaching for a non boring answer, my reply would be that turning your prayer life into an experiment would be like turning your sex life into an experiment.

I suppose I don't see prayer as both or corporate parties being a kind of PEZ dispenser.

[Nearly Sane]

Reaching for a non boring answer, my reply would be that turning your prayer life into an experiment would be like turning your sex life into an experiment.

I suppose I don't see prayer as both or corporate parties being a kind of PEZ dispenser.

This seems to answer some other questions of your own making.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This seems to answer some other questions of your own making.

Not really you were talking about testing prayer weren't you? and I commented on it.

From my POV this is a case of you not liking the answer.


Did you note the bit where I said prayer, being a personal thing is a change in us through prayer a form of communion with God. God is not a Pez dispenser and I am not praying experimentally.

However I know some folks have sent out ''God if you're there'' prayers and David Watson called his early prayers experimental. These people would call their experimental prayer life succesful.

If you do not believe their experimental findings try your own tests.

[Nearly Sane]

Not really you were talking about testing prayer weren't you? and I commented on it.

From my POV this is a case of you not liking the answer.


Did you note the bit where I said prayer, being a personal thing is a change in us through prayer a form of communion with God. God is not a Pez dispenser and I am not praying experimentally.

However I know some folks have sent out ''God if you're there'' prayers and David Watson called his early prayers experimental. These people would call their experimental prayer life succesful.

If you do not believe their experimental findings try your own tests.

Since you didn't attempt to define what prayer 'works' means, I can't see that the concept of testing can be addressed. There was a reason why I asked the questions in that order.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Since you didn't attempt to define what prayer 'works' means, I can't see that the concept of testing can be addressed. There was a reason why I asked the questions in that order.

The words 'prayer works' were introduced by you not me so maybe you should have defined the terms.

I did mention that prayer changes us twice and in my first response to your question.

Of course as the hoo har over souls, consciousness, illusion of self etc,shows us defining me or us isn't humanities strong suit and all sorts of aspects of human life apart from spiritual or religion are only now being crudely examined by neuroscience.


However it seems billions have told us that prayer does something to them.

That doesn't help you for they have tried it for themselves.

So it's down to you. You either call argument ad populum on the idea or believe those who say it doesn't work or test it yourself

[Nearly Sane]

The words 'prayer works' were introduced by you not me so maybe you should have defined the terms.

I did mention that prayer changes us twice and in my first response to your question.

Of course as the hoo har over souls, consciousness, illusion of self etc,shows us defining me or us isn't humanities strong suit and all sorts of aspects of human life apart from spiritual or religion are only now being crudely examined by neuroscience.


However it seems billions have told us that prayer does something to them.

That doesn't help you for they have tried it for themselves.

So it's down to you. You either call argument ad populum on the idea or believe those who say it doesn't work or test it yourself

Indeed, I did, carried over from the same comment I made on the hex thread. I put 'work's in inverted commas though to allow for people to answer in as wide a way as possible. If we allow personal statements with no validation methid, then all you have is a collection of individual statements. Anyone else's does not add to your's. It also means that if Owlswing says his spiritual path works for him then your position is that his claim is equally valid to any you make.

Also as ever, different individuals talking about prayers can make different claims. I am happy to look at those individually.

[Stranger]

What would does it mean that prayers 'work'?

...God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.

So, here's how to tell that prayer works:

• Pray.
• See what happens.
• Whatever it is, call it the answer (because if it's not what you prayed for, it must be that the answer is "no" or "wait").
• Conclude that prayer works.

Simple, eh?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed, I did, carried over from the same comment I made on the hex thread. I put 'work's in inverted commas though to allow for people to answer in as wide a way as possible. If we allow personal statements with no validation methid, then all you have is a collection of individual statements. Anyone else's does not add to your's. It also means that if Owlswing says his spiritual path works for him then your position is that his claim is equally valid to any you make.

Also as ever, different individuals talking about prayers can make different claims. I am happy to look at those individually.

Owlswing would say that to ascribe or infer any kind of reality to Christian faith is objectionable.

I do not question his claim that his spiritual path works for him.

What I wanted to know is if he really thinks his claims about the hex on Brent Kavanaugh are true.

Does Owlswing really believe that Hexes change other people? Because if he does then he has no business claiming that unlike Christians, his belief is merely a matter of faith.


So it isn't a case of a claim that witchcraft works for Owlswing. More a case of does it work on Brett Kavanaugh.


Here is what Owlswing wrote on the hex on Kavanaugh:

 

the chances of the hex, in English, the curse, working vary in inverse proportion to the number of people participating directly or indirectly in the casting of said hex. Thr article states that the witch who is casting the hex is doing it in her shop and has had thousands, fifteen thousand I think, offers of help or potential attendees. The chances of getting the pinpoint concentration of purpose and power direction is so remote as to be negligable.
[/quoute]

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So, here's how to tell that prayer works:

• Pray.
• See what happens.
• Whatever it is, call it the answer (because if it's not what you prayed for, it must be that the answer is "no" or "wait").
• Conclude that prayer works.

Simple, eh?

Er, that's just petitionary prayer.
If you ask someone for a light what are their 3 possible relevant answers going to be?

[Nearly Sane]

Owlswing would say that to ascribe or infer any kind of reality to Christian faith is objectionable.

I do not question his claim that his spiritual path works for him.

What I wanted to know is if he really thinks his claims about the hex on Brent Kavanaugh are true.

Does Owlswing really believe that Hexes change other people? Because if he does then he has no business claiming that unlike Christians, his belief is merely a matter of faith.


So it isn't a case of a claim that witchcraft works for Owlswing. More a case of does it work on Brett Kavanaugh.


Here is what Owlswing wrote on the hex on Kavanaugh:

 

the chances of the hex, in English, the curse, working vary in inverse proportion to the number of people participating directly or indirectly in the casting of said hex. Thr article states that the witch who is casting the hex is doing it in her shop and has had thousands, fifteen thousand I think, offers of help or potential attendees. The chances of getting the pinpoint concentration of purpose and power direction is so remote as to be negligable.

The details of what Owlswing and indeed Robbie mean by 'working' is why I asked the question on the hex thread.

Since you ignored the points of my post about the invalidity of claiming other people's experience s as any validation of a true for me claim, am I to assume you accept that?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The details of what Owlswing and indeed Robbie mean by 'working' is why I asked the question on the hex thread.

Since you ignored the points of my post about the invalidity of claiming other people's experience s as any validation of a true for me claim, am I to assume you accept that?

No sorry, I'm not getting your banter.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The details of what Owlswing and indeed Robbie mean by 'working' is why I asked the question on the hex thread.

I would have thought that if what Owlswing wrote is an actual claim of the ''working of a hex'' than it is eminently more testable than anything claimed by Christianity.

[Nearly Sane]

I would have thought that if what Owlswing wrote is an actual claim of the ''working of a hex'' than it is eminently more testable than anything claimed by Christianity.

As stated I asked about that claim on the hex tgread. I note you again ignored my point. I don't think Christianity claims anything, I think Christians do, and I will examine their claims as individuals.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As stated I asked about that claim on the hex tgread.

Do you expect that claim to recieve the same kind of review as, say, Nicholas Mark's claims?

[Sebastian Toe]

Do you expect that claim to recieve the same kind of review as, say, Nicholas Mark's claims?

...like the one where he states categorically that the stars are no longer visible at night because of pollution caused by chemtrails from commercial aircraft and that anyone who claims to be able to see the stars at night is actually suffering from hallucinations and/or is one of Satan's henchmen.

That one maybe?

How would you treat such a claim?

[Nearly Sane]

Do you expect that claim to recieve the same kind of review as, say, Nicholas Mark's claims?

From me, yes.

Why have you edited my replies to remove the comments on this thread and just leave those about the hex thread where I point out that I have asked the same questions?

[Roses]

This was a question from another poster on another thread so I opened this to prevent inadvertent deflection from the question ''Do hexes work''.


The power behind Christian prayer is of course God.


As CS Lewis said prayer changes us not God.


So no one could try whip up a curse without the knowledge that anything supernatural would have to be through God and to God's specifications and God's three answers to prayer are Yes, no or wait.


The OT has a few examples of prophets who wanted to rain down what not on their enemies and Got peed off with God when he refused.


Can prayer be used as mind gaming? In the long history of Christianity I'm sure some have found a way to pervert it into that.

In my opinion, the power behind prayer is BELIEF in god, which sometimes has a placebo effect. This can convince the believer god is answering their prayers.

I have asked this question many times but never had a satisfactory answer. If god exists and can answer prayers, why does it only do so occasionally, when in a good mood? The response that god always answers prayer, but will say 'no; if it is in a person's best interests is laughable. How can it be in a child's best interests not to be cured of a life threatening ailment?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In my opinion, the power behind prayer is BELIEF in god, which sometimes has a placebo effect. This can convince the believer god is answering their prayers.

I have asked this question many times but never had a satisfactory answer. If god exists and can answer prayers, why does it only do so occasionally, when in a good mood? The response that god always answers prayer, but will say 'no; if it is in a person's best interests is laughable. How can it be in a child's best interests not to be cured of a life threatening ailment?

Our best interest Floo, is eternal unbroken relationship with God.


I can envisage that some who reach a grand old age and die peacefully and celebrated might want eternal separation from God. They cannot complain if that is granted can they?

[Roses]

Our best interest Floo, is eternal unbroken relationship with God.


I can envisage that some who reach a grand old age and die peacefully and celebrated might want eternal separation from God. They cannot complain if that is granted can they?

As there is no evidence god exists, let alone what is in our best interest if it does, that is a meaningless statement, imo.

[Stranger]

Our best interest Floo, is eternal unbroken relationship with God.

Well, if that were the case and said god exists and wants what was best for us, then why is it hiding its existence from us so effectively?

I can envisage that some who reach a grand old age and die peacefully and celebrated might want eternal separation from God. They cannot complain if that is granted can they?

Again, if one of the many gods that people think exist actually does, then it's more likely that people will go to their graves believing in the wrong god(s) or not believing in any because of the total lack of reasons to take any of them seriously...

[Roses]

Well, if that were the case and said god exists and wants what was best for us, then why is it hiding its existence from us so effectively?

Again, if one of the many gods that people think exist actually does, then it's more likely that people will go to their graves believing in the wrong god(s) or not believing in any because of the total lack of reasons to take any of them seriously...

Spot on, imo.

[SteveH]

Supposing the Christian God exists, I don't think s/he will condemn to eternal damnation a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or follower of another religion or no religion who follows the best they know as well as they can, and nothing in the Bible says that s/he will. After all, and continuing for now to assume the truth of Christianity for the sake of argument, Christ died for them, whether or not they believe it.

[Roses]

Supposing the Christian God exists, I don't think s/he will condemn to eternal damnation a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or follower of another religion or no religion who follows the best they know as well as they can, and nothing in the Bible says that s/he will. After all, and continuing for now to assume the truth of Christianity for the sake of argument, Christ died for them, whether or not they believe it.

As no god have ever made its existence apparent beyond all doubt, it would be most unreasonable for those who don't believe in it to be punished for unbelief.