What's the power behind Christian Prayer?

[SteveH]

As no god have ever made its existence apparent beyond all doubt, it would be most unreasonable for those who don't believe in it to be punished for unbelief.

Exactly, but we can always rely on you to put it in an unpleasant, sarky way.

[Stranger]

Supposing the Christian God exists, I don't think s/he will condemn to eternal damnation a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or follower of another religion or no religion who follows the best they know as well as they can, and nothing in the Bible says that s/he will. After all, and continuing for now to assume the truth of Christianity for the sake of argument, Christ died for them, whether or not they believe it.

OK, well that view removes one of the problems with the idea of a Christian god but by no means all of them. It still doesn't explain why this god is so shy. Why hide away? Presumably (assuming the truth of it for the sake of argument) there is some benefit to be had from believing (otherwise why would it bother with any message at all?), so if it wants the best for us, why not make itself obvious to everybody? That's before we get to the seriously bizarre notion of it having to become human and then kill itself horribly in order to forgive us for being what it created...

[Roses]

Exactly, but we can always rely on you to put it in an unpleasant, sarky way.

It think my comments about the god featured in the Bible are reasonable if what is attributed to it is factual. As for sarky, well dear boy no one can comes close to you when it comes to sarcasm, I reckon you got an A*  GCSE in the topic.  I think you love me really otherwise you would ignore my posts.

[jeremyp]

Since you didn't attempt to define what prayer 'works' means, I can't see that the concept of testing can be addressed. There was a reason why I asked the questions in that order.

Prayer works if it makes the person doing the praying feel better.

[Nearly Sane]

Prayer works if it makes the person doing the praying feel better.

Nope, that's you making a definitiin and telling anyine who makes other claims that about what they think prayer does is wrong.

[jeremyp]

Nope, that's you making a definitiin and telling anyine who makes other claims that about what they think prayer does is wrong.

Nope. It's me making a definition based on observations of what Christians say it does. I'm not telling anybody making other claims they are wrong. In fact, I don't see anybody else making other claims. What's your definition of prayer working?

[Nearly Sane]

Nope. It's me making a definition based on observations of what Christians say it does. I'm not telling anybody making other claims they are wrong. In fact, I don't see anybody else making other claims. What's your definition of prayer working?

I don't have one. That's why I asked. I like your willingness to use the No True Scotsman fallacy about people who identify as Christians.

[jeremyp]

I don't have one.

So why jump on me for filling the void?

I like your willingness to use the No True Scotsman fallacy about people who identify as Christians.

This is you making stuff up again isn't it.

[Nearly Sane]

So why jump on me for filling the void?
This is you making stuff up again isn't it.

Because you don't have justification for making an objective statement about what it means. And no, not making stuff up. It is you making an No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Rhiannon]

Prayer works if it makes the person doing the praying feel better.

What about petitionary prayer?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yeah I'd agree with Jeremy's answer - that is one test of prayer working, if it makes the person praying feel better. I don't think it is the only test but it is one way of testing. I think it's impossible to come up with a single test for prayer working as it depends on what the prayer is and what the person praying hopes to gain from it.

For example -  even though I am talking about Muslim prayer here, I imagine it is similar in any faith -  sometimes asking for help when you pray, even if you don't get what you asked for, helps you put your situation in a different perspective. For example, I feel like the reminder of God that I get through prayer strengthens my sense of resolve and I perceive my problems as something I can accept with more equanimity and learn from. The actual process of praying - the movements, the verses being recited, my mind taking some time out from my deadlines and being free to ponder ideas about "the meaning of life", whether I have identified with any particular purpose to my life, my relationships, things I have to be thankful for etc - can all have a calming influence and alter my mood.

[Nearly Sane]

Jeremyp has it as the test, not a test and then had it that those who don't think it is the test of prayer for their view of it are wrong. So it's not clear to me that you are agreeing with him.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Jeremyp has it as the test, not a test and then had it that those who don't think it is the test of prayer for their view of it are wrong. So it's not clear to me that you are agreeing with him.

Ok - I didn't interpret Jeremy's comment the way you did. But getting back to your actual question, some people lose their faith if they pray for something and they don't get it or if the prayer doesn't take away the pain they feel, so maybe one test of a prayer working could be if the person praying doesn't lose their faith after the prayer.

[Nearly Sane]

Ok - I didn't interpret Jeremy's comment the way you did. But getting back to your actual question, some people lose their faith if they pray for something and they don't get it or if the prayer doesn't take away the pain they feel, so maybe one test of a prayer working could be if the person praying doesn't lose their faith after the prayer.

And if someone does lose their faith after praying, as some on here have stated, then that means prayer doesn't work as well. If we take it as purely a subjective statement, then it's effectively worthless beyond tgat. It is purely an individual statement, and has no value beyond the individual. This seems to be at odds with some ideas of prayer, such as Alan's prayer saving him from a parking ticket. The point is surely that any claim that prayer or hexes or wearing lucky socks works needs a definition from the claimant about what they mean by works?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I agree that if someone loses their faith after prayer you could take that as the prayer not working. I haven't read what Alan says about a prayer saving him from a parking ticket.

But if you are talking about a belief in an interventionist god, then my interpretation is that the belief that an intervention happened is separate from any prayer. The traditions I am familiar with is that god has no need of our prayers so the prayer is a ritual for our benefit in so much as the idea is to influence a change in our perspective and behaviour. Not that this change is guaranteed to happen but I think the idea is supposed to be that you persist and try to be consistent in prayer for the whole of your life as transformation of your perspective can sometimes be quick and sometimes it can be a very slow process.

And even if some kind of transformation happens there are no guarantees that the change will be permanent. But my understanding is that setbacks are ok and it is ok to keep trying. As you say, whether it works or not is a subjective view. I would think it is similar to the idea that therapy or CBT works - I heard a teenager on the radio talking about the Blues Programme - she said she used to feel very anxious, depressed and lonely and was taught techniques to help her manage her anxiety about failing, and she said it had led to her participating in a lot more activities and being more sociable and feeling less lonely and depressed. So for her it worked as she got what she felt were positive outcomes - that is a subjective assessment of her feelings, but you can objectively assess if she has participated in more activities than before. So if you have similar goals you are trying to achieve through prayer, you can similarly measure the outcomes after a period of time of regular prayer.
 

[Roses]

I had a problem when I was a child, which seemed serious to me at the time. I prayed and prayed that it would be resolved, but I never had any indication there was any entity listening to my dilemma.

[SteveH]

I had a problem when I was a child, which seemed serious to me at the time. I prayed and prayed that it would be resolved, but I never had any indication there was any entity listening to my dilemma.

Is it still a problem? If not, presumably it was eventually resolved. How do you know that that wasn't in answer to your prayers?

[Roses]

Is it still a problem? If not, presumably it was eventually resolved. How do you know that that wasn't in answer to your prayers?

I resolved it some years later.

[jeremyp]

Because you don't have justification for making an objective statement about what it means. And no, not making stuff up. It is you making an No True Scotsman fallacy.

Nope. No no True Scotsman fallacy. And I did not make an objective statement, I gave a set of criteria for judging whether prayer works, something that nobody else seemed to be bothered to do.

[jeremyp]

What about petitionary prayer?

I gave my definition based on the sorts of things that Christians say about prayer. Quite often Christians don't petition God for objective results. If they have some illness, they won't pray to get better but to be given the strength to bear their illness. Even when they do directly ask God for something, if you challenge them about whether their request was granted, they often won't give you a yes or no, but will explain how praying gave them the strength to carry on or told them how to get by without the thing they asked for.

Petitionary prayer can't work in any objective sense, because even if God existed, granting a petitionary prayer would imply that God was going to let something bad happen unless somebody prayed to him. Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

[Rhiannon]

I gave my definition based on the sorts of things that Christians say about prayer. Quite often Christians don't petition God for objective results. If they have some illness, they won't pray to get better but to be given the strength to bear their illness. Even when they do directly ask God for something, if you challenge them about whether their request was granted, they often won't give you a yes or no, but will explain how praying gave them the strength to carry on or told them how to get by without the thing they asked for.

Petitionary prayer can't work in any objective sense, because even if God existed, granting a petitionary prayer would imply that God was going to let something bad happen unless somebody prayed to him. Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

Which is one view of petitionary prayer for sickness - healing, if you like, rather than cure. But I've also come across the belief that prayer for healing should cure physical illness if the person has enough faith. Once instance I know of involved a group prayer for a woman with MS. Her friends expected her to show up at church walking. When she didn't, they turned on her because she 'must have unrepented sin'.

I agree that petitionary prayer makes no sense - 'save my loved one' is horrendous when you think of the loved ones that don't get saved - but plenty of people carry it out and believe in it. There have even been experiments done to show the outcomes for patients that have been prayed for over those that haven't. You and I may see the illogic in that, but there are Christians out there who like the exclusivity.

[Stranger]

Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

So is sickness, natural disasters, a god that we need to believe in to be "saved" who hides its existence, and, well, the world as it is, basically. Since when has logical consistency had anything to do with religious faith?

[jeremyp]

Since when has logical consistency had anything to do with religious faith?

I don't believe I ever said it did. There are any number of reasons why the Christian conception of God is logically incoherent, but we are focusing on prayer here.

[SteveH]

Petitionary prayer working is logically incompatible with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god.

Depends what you mean by omnipotent and omniscient, but I'm not starting that discussion again. My thread on the subject was sabotaged and derailed by one member here with non-stop, laboured sarcasm, and a few deliberate insults, despite the obvious fact that he had not begun to understand my arguments.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I had a problem when I was a child, which seemed serious to me at the time. I prayed and prayed that it would be resolved, but I never had any indication there was any entity listening to my dilemma.

My understanding of prayer in Islam is that you pray to change yourself - your outlook, reaction, resilience to difficulties etc. There is nothing stopping you praying for intervention as well as that could help strengthen your perception of connection to something spiritual / supernatural or deepen your faith, but my understanding is that Islam is about submission to god's will as opposed to a god submitting to your prayers and intervening because you prayed really, really hard.

Though praying really, really hard is one way of passing time - it's something to do when you feel helpless when you have done all you can do and you could view it as having tried everything, including the supernatural. And praying maybe helps you work through your emotions, get things off your chest by having a conversation in your head, or it could help you let go of some of the stress of trying to think you can control outcomes by placing your trust and hope in something other than yourself that is supernatural/ all-knowing etc