Another gun massacre in the US

[Nearly Sane]

I think Ekim is referring to the "shooter", not the president.

I'll vote with LR here, I think ekim was jokingly referring to Trump.

[Udayana]

The phrase "toxic masculinity" crops up in American English with alarming regularity. I've not heard a definition of it yet, but perhaps that would explain the reason why it is predominantly men who commit these crimes. Furthermore, white men.

To me it's almost as if all the racists and bigots that we thought we'd ( we = loosely speaking Western society) dealt with so well have suddenly been emboldened (Trump = enabler in chief) and decided to do the thing they do best. 

This gives more figures and possible reasons/motives:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

Yes, that seems to confirm it:

 - access to guns
 - loners (ie. poor communicators)
 - low esteem (eg. due to bullying)
 - poor at handling loss (eg. divorce)
 
 All more likely for men.

[Roses]

The UK might be far from perfect, by compared with the US with Trump as president it is a shining star on the face of the planet.

[Nearly Sane]

The UK might be far from perfect, by compared with the US with Trump as president it is a shining star on the face of the planet.

Gun massacres happened pre Trump and we have our own dangerous narcissist PM

[Outrider]

So President Racist has now issued a statement on the two mass shootings this weekend, blaming the internet, 'violent video games', mental health and social media, which of course don't exist anywhere else in the Western World.

However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.

Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US, so gun control isn't the only thing that might work.  More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership.  It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.

O.

[Roses]

Gun massacres happened pre Trump and we have our own dangerous narcissist PM

Yes they did, but some of the deadliest have occurred since Trump became president or so I have just been reading.

As for Boris, as bad as he might be, he is not nearly as bad as Trump, imo.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes they did, but some of the deadliest have occurred since Trump became president or so I have just been reading.

As for Boris, as bad as he might be, he is not nearly as bad as Trump, imo.

Correlation does not mean causation.

And assertion.

[Nearly Sane]

So President Racist has now issued a statement on the two mass shootings this weekend, blaming the internet, 'violent video games', mental health and social media, which of course don't exist anywhere else in the Western World.

However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.

Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US, so gun control isn't the only thing that might work.  More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership.  It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.

O.

And yet the murders predate Trump. Did Obama cause Sandy Hook? Is there a problem? Yep. Is that problem Trump? Not if you believe numbers. Is Trump a problem? Quite possibly but you need to understand the issue. 

[Outrider]

And yet the murders predate Trump. Did Obama cause Sandy Hook? Is there a problem? Yep. Is that problem Trump? Not if you believe numbers. Is Trump a problem? Quite possibly but you need to understand the issue.

Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that Trump was in any way causative in this - I don't think he's helping, but I think there's something fundamentally awry with the American love of guns that goes beyond administrations and into something cultural.

Trump's election is a result of that culture, perhaps a symbol of where it's heading in some ways, but it's not the cause of it.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that Trump was in any way causative in this - I don't think he's helping, but I think there's something fundamentally awry with the American love of guns that goes beyond administrations and into something cultural.

Trump's election is a result of that culture, perhaps a symbol of where it's heading in some ways, but it's not the cause of it.

O.

My apologies for the misreading. The deaths from guns in the States goes down, and yet the massacres go up. It is more complex than we view it.

[Spud]

So President Racist has now issued a statement on the two mass shootings this weekend, blaming the internet, 'violent video games', mental health and social media, which of course don't exist anywhere else in the Western World.

However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.

Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US, so gun control isn't the only thing that might work.  More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership.  It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.

O.

I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.

[Spud]

(we have also become de-sensitized to the f-word)

[Outrider]

(we have also become de-sensitized to the f-word)

Fascist?

O.

[jeremyp]

However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.

In that case many Americans continue to fail to appreciate the nuances of America's gun issues.

Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US,

Correlations are rarely perfect , but just because they aren't doesn't mean there is no causal relationship. I'm sure we all know of people who smoked twenty a day and went on to live to be 90, but none of us doubt smoking is a health risk.

so gun control isn't the only thing that might work.

I don't think anybody is suggesting you can't do other things as well as control guns, but they obviously do need to control guns.

More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership.

Do they? Do you think they have disproportionately more gun deaths or disproportionately fewer gun deaths than they should?

It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.

That's bullshit.

If you could miraculously introduce British gun laws into the USA, no matter what the attitude of the people, there would definitely be fewer gun deaths. You can't kill people with a gun if you can't get hold of one.

[jeremyp]

I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.

Err, no.

Violent films are available in the UK and yet we don't have a gun homicide rate anything like that of the USA. The same applies to most developed countries even ones with more relaxed gun control laws.

[Nearly Sane]

Some numbers

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

[Nearly Sane]

I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.

Except the rate of violent crime has generally been falling. So facts have fucked your assertion.

[Outrider]

I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.

Did watching it make you want to go out and try to kill people? I din t understand the anecdote part, there.

As to the idea that TV violence (and video game violence) might be linked to actual violence, the research is mixed at best, and video games are pretty reliably not a good indicator.

O.

[Outrider]

Correlations are rarely perfect , but just because they aren't doesn't mean there is no causal relationship. I'm sure we all know of people who smoked twenty a day and went on to live to be 90, but none of us doubt smoking is a health risk.

An individual, perhaps, but the point of correlation is that over a larger sample - say an entire nation - Those individual quirks are accommodated.

I don't think anybody is suggesting you can't do other things as well as control guns, but they obviously do need to control guns.

Agreed.

Do they? Do you think they have disproportionately more gun deaths or disproportionately fewer gun deaths than they should?

My understanding is that they have significantly more gun death sentence per capita than anywhere in the world that isn't a war zone, and my personal take is each of them is one too many.

That's bullshit.

Poor phrasing on my part, I'm out of practice on here  It would help, obviously, but I have reservations about whether it would be enough to bring America in line with the rest of the world.

If you could miraculously introduce British gun laws into the USA, no matter what the attitude of the people, there would definitely be fewer gun deaths. You can't kill people with a gun if you can't get hold of one.

Fewer, yes, but introducing UK style gun laws wouldn't change the underlying culture, and the sheer volume of firearms at large in the US would make implementation of those laws problematic, I think.

Not that I can envision anything if that sort of strength being even considered, let alone passed through their legislature.

O.

[Roses]

I have just been looking up violent crime on a BBC website and it says here in the UK it is up by 19%.

[SteveH]

The UK might be far from perfect, by compared with the US with Trump as president it is a shining star on the face of the planet.

Not any more, with Boris Badenough in charge.

[Roses]

Not any more, with Boris Badenough in charge.

Even with Boris in charge.

[Spud]

Did watching it make you want to go out and try to kill people? I din t understand the anecdote part, there.

I will confess that the following day I kicked a stool in anger and also said something I wouldn't normally say and regretted it. Whether that was a result of watching the film I can't be sure.

As to the idea that TV violence (and video game violence) might be linked to actual violence, the research is mixed at best, and video games are pretty reliably not a good indicator.

O.

I've found a study that shows a reduction in neural activity in an area of the brain associated with the regulation of aggression, when subjects were exposed to violence in films. While it doesn't mean that exposure to such media will cause a non-aggressive person to become criminally aggressive, it does suggest that an already aggressive person could become so. And since the study was carried out on adults, one could hypothesize that those with built-in aggression may have been exposed to more media violence during development (eg violence in cartoons - Tom & Jerry etc).
"Repeated Exposure to Media Violence Is Associated with Diminished Response in an Inhibitory Frontolimbic Network"
https://tinyurl.com/y3vw4m4p

[jeremyp]

An individual, perhaps, but the point of correlation is that over a larger sample - say an entire nation - Those individual quirks are accommodated.

But never perfectly.

My understanding is that they have significantly more gun death sentence per capita than anywhere in the world that isn't a war zone, and my personal take is each of them is one too many.

But they also have more significantly more guns per person than anywhere else in the World that isn't a war zone.

Actually I'm not a fan of the "guns per person statistic". The USA has more than one gun per person but what really counts is how many people own guns. There are around 400 million guns in the USA in private ownership. If they were all owned by one person, it would be less of a problem than if everybody had one gun.

Poor phrasing on my part, I'm out of practice on here  It would help, obviously, but I have reservations about whether it would be enough to bring America in line with the rest of the world.

Even just helping would result in lives saved.

Fewer, yes, but introducing UK style gun laws wouldn't change the underlying culture, and the sheer volume of firearms at large in the US would make implementation of those laws problematic, I think.

Not that I can envision anything if that sort of strength being even considered, let alone passed through their legislature.

I did use the word "miraculously" We will not see UK style laws in the US for a long time, but that is not an excuse to not start the ball rolling on something.

[jeremyp]

I will confess that the following day I kicked a stool in anger and also said something I wouldn't normally say and regretted it. Whether that was a result of watching the film I can't be sure.
I've found a study that shows a reduction in neural activity in an area of the brain associated with the regulation of aggression, when subjects were exposed to violence in films. While it doesn't mean that exposure to such media will cause a non-aggressive person to become criminally aggressive, it does suggest that an already aggressive person could become so. And since the study was carried out on adults, one could hypothesize that those with built-in aggression may have been exposed to more media violence during development (eg violence in cartoons - Tom & Jerry etc).
"Repeated Exposure to Media Violence Is Associated with Diminished Response in an Inhibitory Frontolimbic Network"
https://tinyurl.com/y3vw4m4p

There have been studies done measuring the actual effect of playing video games on real life violence. No correlation has been found. The idea that video games or films are the cause of the current craze for mass shootings or gun crime in general is just a red herring.