Another gun massacre in the US

[Roses]

There have been studies done measuring the actual effect of playing video games on real life violence. No correlation has been found. The idea that video games or films are the cause of the current craze for mass shootings or gun crime in general is just a red herring.

Maybe, maybe not, but those sort of games can't do a person's mindset any good, imo . My children would not have been permitted to play those sort of video games had the Internet been around when they were children.

[Outrider]

Maybe, maybe not, but those sort of games can't do a person's mindset any good, imo . My children would not have been permitted to play those sort of video games had the Internet been around when they were children.

And that's why the games industry has an age rating system that huge numbers of parents blatantly ignore in a way that they wouldn't to the same extent with film ratings - which, it's worth remembering, were also once linked to violence without any reliable evidence ever being presented.

There are violent depictions in all of the art through history - does the Bayeux Tapestry incite violence with all the depictions of axes and arrows? - because art, amongst other things, explores the extremes of the human situation.  The human propensity for violence feeds art - including film and video games - as much as, if not more than, the other way round.

O.

[Roses]

And that's why the games industry has an age rating system that huge numbers of parents blatantly ignore in a way that they wouldn't to the same extent with film ratings - which, it's worth remembering, were also once linked to violence without any reliable evidence ever being presented.

There are violent depictions in all of the art through history - does the Bayeux Tapestry incite violence with all the depictions of axes and arrows? - because art, amongst other things, explores the extremes of the human situation.  The human propensity for violence feeds art - including film and video games - as much as, if not more than, the other way round.

O.

Static art, however violent, isn't quite in the same league as violent video games, which many children play for hours each day.

[Outrider]

Static art, however violent, isn't quite in the same league as violent video games, which many children play for hours each day.

In the same league for what? Entertainment - that's a subjective, I'd say, but I'd personally agree with you.  For its influence on the real-world expressions of violence - the evidence suggests that's it pretty much exactly the same, which is to say 'none'.

O.

[jeremyp]

Maybe, maybe not, but those sort of games can't do a person's mindset any good, imo

There's no maybe about it. It is as certain as it can be that there is no such link.

My children would not have been permitted to play those sort of video games had the Internet been around when they were children.

But if you had allowed them to play those sorts of video games it would not have increased their chances of becoming mass murderers.

[Roses]

There's no maybe about it. It is as certain as it can be that there is no such link.
But if you had allowed them to play those sorts of video games it would not have increased their chances of becoming mass murderers.

Maybe not, but I don't think it would have done them any good either.

[Outrider]

Maybe not, but I don't think it would have done them any good either.

Better they get out in the fresh air and play Cowboys and Indians?

O.

[Roses]

Better they get out in the fresh air and play Cowboys and Indians?

O.

As well as playing health improving games outside, my husband used to play all sort of board games with the children, which were good for their intellect. Our eldest girl enjoyed playing 'space lines' with him a sort of three dimensional noughts and crosses. By the time she was 6 years old he couldn't beat her, and she couldn't beat him, it was stalemate!

[Outrider]

As well as playing health improving games outside, my husband used to play all sort of board games with the children, which were good for their intellect. Our eldest girl enjoyed playing 'space lines' with him a sort of three dimensional noughts and crosses. By the time she was 6 years old he couldn't beat her, and she couldn't beat him, it was stalemate!

And I played dexterity and abstract thought improving games with my eldest on Playstation, co-operative strategy games with him on-line when he was at university, and now with our youngest I'm starting to play some that work on hand-eye co-ordination and educational things on dinosaur genera - as well, of course, as regular trips to the park.

My eldest keeps up with his various friends and family across the world while they play on-line.

There are benefits to gaming, and as such there's nothing wrong with making them a part of a child's upbringing.

O.

[Roses]

And I played dexterity and abstract thought improving games with my eldest on Playstation, co-operative strategy games with him on-line when he was at university, and now with our youngest I'm starting to play some that work on hand-eye co-ordination and educational things on dinosaur genera - as well, of course, as regular trips to the park.

My eldest keeps up with his various friends and family across the world while they play on-line.

There are benefits to gaming, and as such there's nothing wrong with making them a part of a child's upbringing.

O.

The trouble is, many kids don't seem to do anything else, which is definitely not healthy.

[Outrider]

The trouble is, many kids don't seem to do anything else, which is definitely not healthy.

Is it what they're doing, then, that's unhealthy, or the limited range of what they're doing?  Is it any better for people's general wellbeing to be out in the park until all hours kicking a ball around to the exclusion of everything else?  They'll be physically fitter, probably, but will their reading be up to spec, will they have the fine motor skills to do precision work, will they be able to type at a reasonable speed?

I'd suggest that fixation on any single thing is going to be detrimental to a developing mind - one of the things that makes the all-consuming passions of children so hard to bear - and that it's not intrinsically gaming that is the issue in that situation, as the lack of anything else in their life.

O.

[Roses]

Is it what they're doing, then, that's unhealthy, or the limited range of what they're doing?  Is it any better for people's general wellbeing to be out in the park until all hours kicking a ball around to the exclusion of everything else?  They'll be physically fitter, probably, but will their reading be up to spec, will they have the fine motor skills to do precision work, will they be able to type at a reasonable speed?

I'd suggest that fixation on any single thing is going to be detrimental to a developing mind - one of the things that makes the all-consuming passions of children so hard to bear - and that it's not intrinsically gaming that is the issue in that situation, as the lack of anything else in their life.

O.

Physical exercise is most important, too many kids are very overweight these day.  Of course they need to study to keep their minds active, but playing computer games for hours on end isn't the way to do it, reading books of an educational nature is far better imo.

[SteveH]

The trouble is, many kids don't seem to do anything else, which is definitely not healthy.

Evidence?
Thought not.

[jeremyp]

I just want to reiterate the following:

Studies have been done on the relationship between violent video games and actual violence: no link has been found. None.Let's stop obsessing with something that isn't a problem.

Meanwhile, about those guns...

[Outrider]

Physical exercise is most important, too many kids are very overweight these day.  Of course they need to study to keep their minds active, but playing computer games for hours on end isn't the way to do it, reading books of an educational nature is far better imo.

Physical exercise is, probably, important - there are some studies that suggest diet is far more important in our health (as opposed to fitness) than exercise.  Whether it's the 'most' important is questionable - is it better a life to be eminently employable and die at 65 or minimum wage but fit until you're 90?

As to the idea that there is  no educational value in games but an intrinsic education value in books I'll pitch the historically well-informed and elucidating Assassin's Creed series against, say, Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings (both of which, to be clear, I'd heartily recommend).

O.

[SteveH]

Physical exercise is, probably, important - there are some studies that suggest diet is far more important in our health (as opposed to fitness) than exercise.  Whether it's the 'most' important is questionable - is it better a life to be eminently employable and die at 65 or minimum wage but fit until you're 90?

Someone on the minimum wage is most umlikely to be fit until 90, and there is no reason why someone with a desireable job and a reasonably high income should die in their 60s: the job may be sedentary, but they will have the education and intelligence to know the value of physical and mental exercise, and be able to eat a good, balanced diet.

As to the idea that there is  no educational value in games but an intrinsic education value in books I'll pitch the historically well-informed and elucidating Assassin's Creed series against, say, Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings (both of which, to be clear, I'd heartily recommend).

There are lots of books not worth reading, and some downright harmful ones, and there may be some computer games with some educational value, but it remains true that, broadly speaking, books, and traditional, outdoor play, are better than computer games for kids.

[Outrider]

Someone on the minimum wage is most umlikely to be fit until 90, and there is no reason why someone with a desireable job and a reasonably high income should die in their 60s: the job may be sedentary, but they will have the education and intelligence to know the value of physical and mental exercise, and be able to eat a good, balanced diet.

Someone on minimum wage is a little more likely to be fit until old age, as they are more likely to have a job that involves considerable movement and manual handling elements.  Unfortunately, they are more likely to suffer mobility issues from degradation in that old age as they have worked harder for longer.

There are lots of books not worth reading, and some downright harmful ones, and there may be some computer games with some educational value, but it remains true that, broadly speaking, books, and traditional, outdoor play, are better than computer games for kids.

And, again, that's still to an extent an apples and oranges comparison - they have differing benefits (and opportunity costs) but neither is inherently better than the other.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49540160

[jeremyp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49540160

It's getting hard to keep track of these. Is this another new one?

[Nearly Sane]

It's getting hard to keep track of these. Is this another new one?

Yep.

[Roses]

There are so many of these gun massacres across the pond they are just part of day to day life, almost!

[Nearly Sane]

Not a massacre, just the two teenagers murdered. Hardly news at all. But an utter tragedy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50422956

[Nearly Sane]

And following on from that


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/18/california-mass-shootings-gun-violence-control?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3OXptTmNg-2o9paTkPPcpuMsrJMSKe92xTDHDwcMTRgg1CLvvQ1VrPmrQ#Echobox=1574110165

[Roses]

As I have said before I am so grateful I don't live in the US where guns are so prolific. Why on earth can't they see owning a gun doesn't make you any more safe?

The fact this thread is now a sticky, goes to show how we are going to be coming back to the topic over and over again, as there are massacres on such a regular basis.

[Nearly Sane]

As I have said before I am so grateful I don't live in the US where guns are so prolific. Why on earth can't they see owning a gun doesn't make you any more safe?

The fact this thread is now a sticky, goes to show how we are going to be coming back to the topic over and over again, as there are massacres on such a regular basis.

  Pedant alert, prolific is the wrong word there, and is wrong in an ironic way.

The thing is those supporting gun ownership see it as a right and then because it has inherent danger, see it as counter acting that danger. The second amendment is seen as being about freedom.