Should being an arsehole really be illegal?

[jeremyp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46106224

Some people made a model of Grenfell Tower and set fire to it and then posted a video of it on social media. Now I think we can all agree that this was a pretty sick joke at best and their behaviour was pretty bad (so you don't need to post to say so Little Roses).

However, should we really be putting people in prison just for being arseholes? It seems to me that this is an erosion of freedom of speech.

[ad_orientem]

It's completely stupid. It's in extremely poor taste, of course, but I don't see that any real crime has been committed here. What a waste of money.

[Rhiannon]

Hmm. Is freedom of speech the freedom to offend? And if so do we then have a freedom to take offence and want to see lines drawn?

I think the issue here was putting it on social media. If they hadn't there wouldn't be a problem, legally at any rate.

[jeremyp]

Hmm. Is freedom of speech the freedom to offend?

No. Freedom to offend is a necessary condition in order to have freedom of speech but it is not a sufficient condition.

And if so do we then have a freedom to take offence and want to see lines drawn?

Yes, but that doesn't mean the place where you want the lines drawn is the right place.

I think the issue here was putting it on social media. If they hadn't there wouldn't be a problem, legally at any rate.

I agree. But it's still problematic in terms of freedom of speech.

[wigginhall]

I don't know enough about the law, to say if it's a hate crime.  Presumably, burning an effigy of a synagogue would be, but Grenfell isn't linked to any group.  Some people are arguing that there are racist comments, haven't heard that, and IANAL.   Maybe a public order offense, I think causing alarm and distress fits here.  But the other point is creating martyrs, not good.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46106224

Some people made a model of Grenfell Tower and set fire to it and then posted a video of it on social media. Now I think we can all agree that this was a pretty sick joke at best and their behaviour was pretty bad (so you don't need to post to say so Little Roses).

However, should we really be putting people in prison just for being arseholes? It seems to me that this is an erosion of freedom of speech.

Man, these people give arseholes a bad name.

[jakswan]

Hmm. Is freedom of speech the freedom to offend? And if so do we then have a freedom to take offence and want to see lines drawn?

I think the issue here was putting it on social media. If they hadn't there wouldn't be a problem, legally at any rate.

I heard that debate somewhere... wasn't it covered in Cathy Newman\Jordan Peterson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

Essentially what JeremyP said.

I would name and shame those that carried out this horrific joke.

[jeremyp]

Hmm. Is freedom of speech the freedom to offend? And if so do we then have a freedom to take offence and want to see lines drawn?

I think the issue here was putting it on social media. If they hadn't there wouldn't be a problem, legally at any rate.

One further point to add. They are accused of a “public order” offence, which recognises a right of people to go about their daily business without being harassed, alarmed or distressed. Note that “offended” is missing from that list.

I think it’s fairly certain that some of the Grenfell survivors and relatives of the people who were killed would find the video pretty distressing.

So there is a case to answer under that law as it stands.

[Udayana]

...
I think it’s fairly certain that some of the Grendel survivors and relatives of the people who were killed would find the video pretty distressing.

So there is a case to answer under that law as it stands.

So, does that mean you have come round to accepting that there are probably issues here that are more important than erosion of freedom of speech?

Don't know about prison, but there are a range of other sanctions and deterrents available.

[SteveH]

Grendel survivors

Beowulf?

[Robbie]

Don't mention that hairy thing Steven!

[jeremyp]

So, does that mean you have come round to accepting that there are probably issues here that are more important than erosion of freedom of speech?

There have always been some limitations on freedom of speech. For example, we have had libel laws for a long while.  I'm kind of OK with  this law, it's shutting down speech because people are offended that offends me.

[jeremyp]

Beowulf?

Fixed