Author Topic: Leaving a message behind. (Read 2435 times)

Anchorman · « **on:** November 06, 2018, 11:00:18 PM »

I just realised that Eugene Peterson died last week. Today's the anniversary of the day in 1977 when I accepted Christ as Lord; and in that time I've read umpteen Bible translations, as well as Bible Paraphrase such as the Living Bible and the excellent Glasgow Bible, but Peterson's masterpiece, "The Message" , is never far from my fingertips. Yes, it's a free paraphrase - a very free paraphrase - but it manages to deal pretty well with some of the more difficult theology in Scripture in a way that surprises me and sometimes forces me to do a re-think. The Message is a fantastic legacy to leave behind. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/october/eugene-peterson-died-message-bible-long-obedience-resurrect.html

trippymonkey · « **Reply #1 on:** November 06, 2018, 11:05:25 PM »

OH DEAR !??!!?!?!?!?!??

Anchorman · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2018, 08:51:49 AM »

Quote from: trippymonkey on November 06, 2018, 11:05:25 PM

OH DEAR !??!!?!?!?!?!??

Why "Oh dear"?
The paraphrase has been used , both as a scriptural tool, or as a shorthand hymnody tool, for centuries.
"The Message" in anchored in this tradition. Its' language may be more colloquial than most, but it is no more radical than Phillips or the Living Bible, both of which are accepted standards in both public and private devotion.

ekim · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:00:07 AM »

Can you sum up 'The Message'?

Anchorman · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:16:03 AM »

Quote from: ekim on November 07, 2018, 09:00:07 AM

Can you sum up 'The Message'?

Oh, summing up?
The same way you'd sum up the worth of any translation or indeed paraphrase.
Here's his rendering of Mark 12: 28-31.

" One of the religion scholars came up. Hearing the lively exchanges of question and answer and seeing how sharp Jesus was in his answers, he put in his question: "Which is most important of all the commandments?"

Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one; so love the Lord God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence and energy.' And here is the second: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.' There is no other commandment that ranks with these." "
The Message. (MSG)

SteveH · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2018, 02:07:19 PM »

Why read a "very free paraphrase", when you can read any one of a number of accurate translations?

Anchorman · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2018, 04:01:56 PM »

Quote from: Steve H on November 07, 2018, 02:07:19 PM

Why read a "very free paraphrase", when you can read any one of a number of accurate translations?

Because sometimes the thought behind the passage may be lost in the quest for accuracy.
Koine Greek was 'street Greek'; too often our translations, whilst accurate linguistically, are stultified and formal,and lose the dynamism of the original.

If I'm reading "The Message", I have my NIV or RSV handy for comparison.
Though I've used paraphrases when conducting worship when I think both the situationand context are apropriate, I have always read, re-read and checked my readings in one - probably two - other translations, before using them.
When I DO use them, though, the response from the hearers is usually positive.

jeremyp · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2018, 09:32:47 PM »

Quote from: Anchorman on November 07, 2018, 04:01:56 PM

Because sometimes the thought behind the passage may be lost in the quest for accuracy.

Seriously?

Did you not read that back to yourself and think "well that's bollocks"?

Quote

Koine Greek was 'street Greek'; too often our translations, whilst accurate linguistically, are stultified and formal,and lose the dynamism of the original.

How often. Would you like to name some specific examples?

How do you know that the original Koine Greek was dynamic? I mean, even if you can read it, how do you know it was written to be dynamic? Surely you'd need to be part of the culture to pick up the nuances.

Anchorman · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2018, 10:45:11 PM »

Nope. I repeat; sometimes the thought can be lost in a quest for accuracy. There asre many modern translations which try to translate the Greek (or Hebrew) inro an English which is accyrate to every jot and tittle (seewotIdidthere) of modern English. In their effort to do so, they can lose the dynamisdm of the original. The Original was never meant to be theologically legalistic and hard to absorb; quite the contrary; given that most of those first century believers were semi-literate, it was meant to be read aloud and listened to, not dissected word for word by scholars. That's why 'dynamic equivalent' translations such as NLT, CEV, GNB, etc, have their uses in not being strictly accurate word-for word,as in NRSV, for example, but communicating the meaning - the thought - in a more easily accessable way. Paul himself said that "Faith comes through hearing".

trippymonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2018, 10:45:59 PM »

Quote from: Anchorman on November 07, 2018, 09:16:03 AM

Oh, summing up?
The same way you'd sum up the worth of any translation or indeed paraphrase.
Here's his rendering of Mark 12: 28-31.

" One of the religion scholars came up. Hearing the lively exchanges of question and answer and seeing how sharp Jesus was in his answers, he put in his question: "Which is most important of all the commandments?"

Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one; so love the Lord God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence and energy.' And here is the second: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.' There is no other commandment that ranks with these." "
The Message. (MSG)

YES ?!?!? You WILL do as you're told or you've HAD IT !!!!
What a lovely god & we SHOULD all worship such selflessness, eh ?!?!?!?

Robbie · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2018, 11:31:24 PM »

Better grammar and punctuation than yours trippy.

Anchorman · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2018, 09:36:41 AM »

Quote from: trippymonkey on November 07, 2018, 10:45:59 PM

YES ?!?!? You WILL do as you're told or you've HAD IT !!!!
What a lovely god & we SHOULD all worship such selflessness, eh ?!?!?!?

Nope. Not seeing "or you've had it" in that particular scripture.

SteveH · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2018, 01:41:49 PM »

Where's LR got to? She should have posted "There's no evidence that the unpleasant god character in the Bible exists" on this thread by now.

jeremyp · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2018, 01:45:30 PM »

Quote from: Anchorman on November 07, 2018, 10:45:11 PM

Nope. I repeat; sometimes the thought can be lost in a quest for accuracy.

It's still just as bollocks as the first time you wrote it. The objective of the quest for accuracy is to get the thought right.

Quote

There asre many modern translations which try to translate the Greek (or Hebrew) inro an English which is accyrate to every jot and tittle (seewotIdidthere) of modern English. In their effort to do so, they can lose the dynamisdm of the original. The Original was never meant to be theologically legalistic and hard to absorb; quite the contrary; given that most of those first century believers were semi-literate, it was meant to be read aloud and listened to, not dissected word for word by scholars. That's why 'dynamic equivalent' translations such as NLT, CEV, GNB, etc, have their uses in not being strictly accurate word-for word,as in NRSV, for example, but communicating the meaning - the thought - in a more easily accessable way. Paul himself said that "Faith comes through hearing".

How do you know that the attempt to inject modern dynamism doesn't change the meaning away from what the author had intended?

SteveH · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2018, 02:15:32 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on November 08, 2018, 01:45:30 PM

It's still just as bollocks as the first time you wrote it. The objective of the quest for accuracy is to get the thought right.
How do you know that the attempt to inject modern dynamism doesn't change the meaning away from what the author had intended?

Like, for example, the Good News Bible, which has the beatitudes starting "Happy are...", not "Blessed are...". Happiness and blessedness are not the same.

Robbie · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2018, 06:50:11 PM »

Quote from: Steve H on November 08, 2018, 01:41:49 PM

Where's LR got to? She should have posted "There's no evidence that the unpleasant god character in the Bible exists" on this thread by now.

You left out, 'imo'.

SteveH · « **Reply #16 on:** November 09, 2018, 10:49:46 AM »

Quote from: Robbie on November 08, 2018, 06:50:11 PM

You left out, 'imo'.

Dicky Underpants · « **Reply #17 on:** November 09, 2018, 04:53:10 PM »

Quote from: Steve H on November 08, 2018, 01:41:49 PM

Where's LR got to? She should have posted "There's no evidence that the unpleasant god character in the Bible exists" on this thread by now.

Hasn't she broken her arm? Probably doesn't fancy typing with just one hand (although that's just what half the people in the library where I'm typing this do - bashing away with one finger, and breaking the 'feet' of the keyboards whilst doing so).

Dicky Underpants · « **Reply #18 on:** November 09, 2018, 04:58:04 PM »

Quote from: Anchorman on November 07, 2018, 10:45:11 PM

In their effort to do so, they can lose the dynamisdm of the original. The Original was never meant to be theologically legalistic and hard to absorb; quite the contrary; given that most of those first century believers were semi-literate, it was meant to be read aloud and listened to, not dissected word for word by scholars.

However, I'm not sure that could be said of the Epistle to the Hebrews - which, if it means anything, is bloody hard to absorb. As are some of the dense complexities of Pauline theology.
To be fair to you, though, I'd say that if anyone is qualified to say what Koine Greek was supposed to convey, you would seem to fit the bill more than anyone on this forum that I can think of.

Anchorman · « **Reply #19 on:** November 09, 2018, 11:55:16 PM »

Quote from: Dicky Underpants on November 09, 2018, 04:58:04 PM

However, I'm not sure that could be said of the Epistle to the Hebrews - which, if it means anything, is bloody hard to absorb. As are some of the dense complexities of Pauline theology.
To be fair to you, though, I'd say that if anyone is qualified to say what Koine Greek was supposed to convey, you would seem to fit the bill more than anyone on this forum that I can think of.

Aw, shucks!
Mind you, I'm with you on Hebrews...I've yet to find a literal translation - or even a dynamic equivalent one - which makes it an easy read.
The Message comes close, though....I almost understand bits of it simetimes when I read Peterson's interpretation.

SteveH · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2018, 11:51:24 AM »

Hebrews.
Shebrews.

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Author Topic: Leaving a message behind. (Read 2435 times)