Author Topic: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......  (Read 9719 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« on: November 12, 2018, 10:27:27 AM »
........and is that straw at his feet?

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 10:38:35 AM »
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 10:45:22 AM »
If Jesus really was God incarnate, then omnipotence and omniscience cannot be essential properties of God, as he was neither during his incarnation. That leaves omnibenevolence, which he did have. The bible specifically says that "God is love" (not has love, or is loving, but is love). It nowhere says in so many words that God is power or God is knowledge. That's why I don't believe in divine omnipotence or omniscience, unless you qualify the words so much as to deny them.
Little Roses - don't bother.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 11:04:16 AM »
If Jesus really was God incarnate, then omnipotence and omniscience cannot be essential properties of God, as he was neither during his incarnation. That leaves omnibenevolence, which he did have. The bible specifically says that "God is love" (not has love, or is loving, but is love). It nowhere says in so many words that God is power or God is knowledge. That's why I don't believe in divine omnipotence or omniscience, unless you qualify the words so much as to deny them.
Little Roses - don't bother.
I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong but I think your post shows the non necessity of getting hung up on terms like omnipotence or omniscience when postulating God and the omnis are more a concern for philosophers than theologians and religious thinkers who, like Anselm, think that God is just the 'most' rather than the Omni.

The actual argument against any God of the Omnis is spoiled for me practically by those who end up saying that if God were omnipotent he would have to do this or that and also one can envisage all things, all knowledge and all power and agree that with others.......but all love? How do you begin to define that let alone agree on the definition?

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 11:10:46 AM »
Quite.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4373
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 04:59:31 PM »
If Jesus really was God incarnate, then omnipotence and omniscience cannot be essential properties of God, as he was neither during his incarnation.That leaves omnibenevolence, which he did have. The bible specifically says that "God is love" (not has love, or is loving, but is love). It nowhere says in so many words that God is power or God is knowledge. That's why I don't believe in divine omnipotence or omniscience, unless you qualify the words so much as to deny them.
Little Roses - don't bother.

"If Jesus really was.." Your problems start there. "That leaves omnibenevolence, which he did have". Again, a question of interpretation, and not fully supported by the scriptures, the ultimate source material. His nature appears to have been extremely compassionate, though in certain instances, grudgingly so. But certainly not "omnibenevolent".

"[The Bible] nowhere says in so many words that God is power or God is knowledge". In fact, the argument of the Book of Job depends almost entirely on the concept of God's power (which is why the denouement of that scripture is so unconvincing). You will also find quite a few references to God's power in Isaiah.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 06:01:08 PM »
"If Jesus really was.." Your problems start there. "That leaves omnibenevolence, which he did have". Again, a question of interpretation, and not fully supported by the scriptures, the ultimate source material. His nature appears to have been extremely compassionate, though in certain instances, grudgingly so. But certainly not "omnibenevolent".
Since, on here you only seem to show benevolence to those you like or those you consider 'on you team' Dicky I'm not sure you can make pronouncements on omnibenevolence with anything like certainty.


There are huge problems nailing benevolence down definitionally.

Problems which Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence won't have since they are far, far more clear cut.

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 11:04:16 PM »

"[The Bible] nowhere says in so many words that God is power or God is knowledge". In fact, the argument of the Book of Job depends almost entirely on the concept of God's power (which is why the denouement of that scripture is so unconvincing). You will also find quite a few references to God's power in Isaiah.
God has power, but is love.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 11:39:26 PM »
Jesus claimed to be many things as the "I AM"; "Light" Way, Truth, Life" The door...allowing entrance and protection The Vine Living Water (Possible hark back to Moses using Aaron's staff) Bread of life (Allusions to thwe wilderness wanderings) Passover Lamb - heralding the new Covenant, as the original heralded the Mosaic. Good Shepherd - Taking on the identity ascribed to God by David. And umpteen other descriptions. Seems pretty comprehensive to me.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2018, 08:33:35 AM »
Jesus claimed to be many things as the "I AM"; "Light" Way, Truth, Life" The door...allowing entrance and protection The Vine Living Water (Possible hark back to Moses using Aaron's staff) Bread of life (Allusions to thwe wilderness wanderings) Passover Lamb - heralding the new Covenant, as the original heralded the Mosaic. Good Shepherd - Taking on the identity ascribed to God by David. And umpteen other descriptions. Seems pretty comprehensive to me.
All those things are aspects of love. He did not say "I am poweful", or "I know everything".
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2018, 08:36:53 AM »
Do many here still 'believe' ALL creation is somehow separate from God or, as in Hinduism, we are all PART of God as nothing exists 'outside' of God.????
Might explain a few things - then again.....

Nick

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7990
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2018, 08:44:21 AM »
If god exists and is the creator of everything, including the human psyche, it is totally responsible for all the bad things people do.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2018, 08:49:08 AM »
All those things are aspects of love. He did not say "I am poweful", or "I know everything".
Given those statements, in the light of His self-identification as the "I AM", He did not need to. If you accept Jesus' nature as part of the Triune nature of God from before the beginning, then it has been proposed that the only time that nature was divided was on Calvary. Therefore, everything God is, Jesus is; everything Jesus is, God is.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 09:07:19 AM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2018, 08:53:30 AM »
Do many here still 'believe' ALL creation is somehow separate from God or, as in Hinduism, we are all PART of God as nothing exists 'outside' of God.????
Might explain a few things - then again.....

Nick
   



The orthodox  - small 'o' - Chrisian view is that we are separate from God - by our own failure.
Christ, by His actions, has become our reconcilliation, should we accept Him.
From NT writings, God separated Himself from creation which 'groans in anticipation' for the completion of the parousia.
Well, according to Paul, anyway.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 09:20:54 AM »
Everything God is, Jesus is; everything Jesus is, God is.
My point exactly: since he obviously wasn't omnipotent or omniscient during his incarnation, those qualities can't be essential to God's nature.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 10:52:13 AM by Steve H »
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2018, 09:26:43 AM »
My point exactly: since he obviously wasn't omnipotent or omniscient during his incarnation, those qualities can't be assential to God's nature.
   


Why not?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

trippymonkey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4550
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2018, 09:30:13 AM »
   



The orthodox  - small 'o' - Chrisian view is that we are separate from God - by our own failure.
Christ, by His actions, has become our reconcilliation, should we accept Him.
From NT writings, God separated Himself from creation which 'groans in anticipation' for the completion of the parousia.
Well, according to Paul, anyway.

Not at all possible cos it means God is limited & NOT God, no?
N

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2018, 09:44:30 AM »
The conventional Christian view is that Jesus shares the absolute power and authority of the Father completely. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews (Paul? ) obviously thought so, anyway, as he wrote that "/this Son perfectly mirrors God, and isstamped with God's nature. He holds everything togrther by what He says; powerful words!" (Heb 1:3( Yes, I'm using the Message - it was the one I'm working on at the moment. I could have quoted Paul's treatise in Colossians instead.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2018, 09:46:21 AM »
Not at all possible cos it means God is limited & NOT God, no?
N
   Not at all possible?
"With God, all thingsare possible."
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2018, 10:30:35 AM »
Do many here still 'believe' ALL creation is somehow separate from God or, as in Hinduism, we are all PART of God as nothing exists 'outside' of God.????
Might explain a few things - then again.....

Nick
A heretic's view might be that 'God' is a word used to represent the 'life' which is within all life forms.  It is sometimes represented by the word 'being' or its Latin equivalent 'essence' and by Whole or Holy Spirit.  In essence there is no separation, but conceptually there is.  Using an ocean as an analogy, the water is the essence and the superficial waves are the forms it can take.  Apparent separation occurs by identifying with the wave rather than the water.  The way of Jesus was to turn the attention within beyond the superficial mental concepts and identify with the life essence which to him was the truth and if the 4th Gospel is correct enabled him to say "I am being the way, the truth and life itself, no one comes to God except by me (i.e. being the way the truth and the life itself)".

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 10:51:12 AM »
   


Why not?
*Sigh* Because if they were, Jesus would have had to have them during his incarnation, but he didn't, so they can't be.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 10:53:31 AM by Steve H »
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2018, 11:25:09 AM »
*Sigh* Because if they were, Jesus would have had to have them during his incarnation, but he didn't, so they can't be.
   


....His incarnation....the act of God becoming present in man?
If Christ is God - the One who is Creator and Sustainer of all that is, then He was God before anything was, He is God now, and will be God after anything is not.
Scripture makes it abundantly clear that the authors of the books of both Old and New Testaments believed God was creator and sustainer of all that is.
What makes you think they were wrong?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10411
  • God? She's black.
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2018, 11:26:23 AM »
   


....His incarnation....the act of God becoming present in man?
If Christ is God - the One who is Creator and Sustainer of all that is, then He was God before anything was, He is God now, and will be God after anything is not.
Scripture makes it abundantly clear that the authors of the books of both Old and New Testaments believed God was creator and sustainer of all that is.
What makes you think they were wrong?
Where have I said that?
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4373
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2018, 05:27:04 PM »
Since, on here you only seem to show benevolence to those you like or those you consider 'on you team' Dicky I'm not sure you can make pronouncements on omnibenevolence with anything like certainty.

And there was me thinking that I was in a team of one! I do wish you could rid yourself of this annoying habit of thinking in such binary terms. Ironically though, the synoptic gospels give clear indications that the historical Jesus himself was primarily concerned with those "on his team" (i.e.Jews), and only came to acknowledge the significance of people from other nations if he was convinced of their genuine faith in Israel's God. Such a reading naturally conflicts with other statements in the synoptics and elsewhere that indicate that he had a universalist message. I believe that the scriptures relating to the two points of view are irreconcilable - you have to believe in one or the other.
There is of course a troublesome text (found in some early manuscripts) which states that "Jesus was angry" (Mark 1:41) when asked by a paralytic? man to heal him......

Quote
There are huge problems nailing benevolence down definitionally.

Problems which Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence won't have since they are far, far more clear cut.

I think you'll find that all the latter have some sizable problems of their own. The last has caused oceans of ink to be eked out, from the Jewish concept of  Tzintzum, to Milton: "Boundless the Deep, because I am who fill
 Infinitude, nor vacuous the space.
 Though I uncircumscrib'd my self retire,
 And put not forth my goodness, which is free
 To act or not,..." or something

PL, Book 7
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:55:11 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4373
Re: Who is this "God of the Omnis"......
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2018, 06:04:45 PM »
God has power, but is love.

This is really all semantics, isn't it? I sense that you are simply ventriloquizing one respected view of traditional Christian theology in which you don't really believe. If you do subscribe to the ideas of the 'non-realist God', I don't see how it can be otherwise. In fact, I suspect that your view of Jesus is not so very different from mine - a supremely courageous, compassionate man, with some very significant ideas to impart to humanity. You probably think the words imputed to him about his having a universalist message are authentic, though - if that is the case, then we do certainly differ on that.
Now, feel free to argue theology if that's what floats your boat, but if you are arguing for matters in which you don't truly believe, merely because you can score points that way, it can be confusing.
Anchorman, by contrast, believes with every fibre of his being what he states as his faith. I don't share his faith, but I know he is utterly sincere in his beliefs.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David