Will Brexit Kill?

[SteveH]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/16/brexit-is-a-business-bankrupter-small-firms-brace-for-no-deal?fbclid=IwAR0p9O5O5LS5PXGa3vKsOJ6MQc35nGXYNeDsl_jwGbmL-dIn2R10YLh1YHI

[Roses]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/16/brexit-is-a-business-bankrupter-small-firms-brace-for-no-deal?fbclid=IwAR0p9O5O5LS5PXGa3vKsOJ6MQc35nGXYNeDsl_jwGbmL-dIn2R10YLh1YHI

It looks like Brexit could ruin the British economy.

[Sassy]

Sass with each post you are not doing yourself any favours whatsoever. Britain is a very small country and cannot stand alone these days without the help and support of the EU. We cannot rely on the country across the pond to back us up with the dangerous cretin who is now in the White House.

That is really nonsense...  Britain has been able to stand on it's own feet well before the USA came into existence.
We still have the common wealth and we have been able to cope before and after the EU. When it comes to GB we can stand alone and do not need the EU. Even the Queen before the referendum would ask her dinner guests and friends to give two good reasons why we need to remain in the EU. Yours never came up as a reason because Britain has good relations with other Countries and we would soon  be back to standing on our own two feet instead of being milked by the EU.

The EU is the ones who will have the problems because those poorer countries who found it too expensive which we all had to pay billions to bail out will seriously think of leaving too.

We do not need the EU...

[Aruntraveller]

Even the Queen before the referendum would ask her dinner guests and friends to give two good reasons why we need to remain in the EU.

I suppose evidence wouldn't be too much to ask for in regard to this claim?

PS Go to the Commonwealth. They've moved on. They don't need us particularly.

You are deluded if you think leaving the EU is going to somehow make us richer. It won't. Yes we will get a modicum of "control" back. This though will be far outweighed by the overwhelming problems all countries face which are namely climate change and the control that multi nationals impose on all countries. We would be better off and better able to cope with challenges if we joined forces with our fellow Europeans instead of cutting ourselves off. Still the phrase Little Englander exists for a reason.

[jeremyp]

That is really nonsense...  Britain has been able to stand on it's own feet well before the USA came into existence.

Before the USA came into existence the UK was a fairly insignificant trading nation on the edge of Europe with a population about one tenth the size of now. Things have changed slightly since then.

We still have the common wealth

The Commonwealth represents the past. The EU is the future.

and we have been able to cope before and after the EU.

I don’t want us to be coping. I want us to be thriving and prosperous and able to help other nations to thrive and be prosperous.

When it comes to GB we can stand alone and do not need the EU. Even the Queen before the referendum would ask her dinner guests and friends to give two good reasons why we need to remain in the EU. Yours never came up as a reason because Britain has good relations with other Countries and we would soon  be back to standing on our own two feet instead of being milked by the EU.

I think citation needed for that one.

The EU is the ones who will have the problems because those poorer countries who found it too expensive which we all had to pay billions to bail out will seriously think of leaving too.

Now you are conflating the EU and the Eurozone. Also, has it not occurred to you that it helps us to help other nations in difficulty. For one thing, where do you think all the immigrants come from?

[SteveH]

That is really nonsense...  Britain has been able to stand on it's own feet well before the USA came into existence.
We still have the common wealth and we have been able to cope before and after the EU. When it comes to GB we can stand alone and do not need the EU. Even the Queen before the referendum would ask her dinner guests and friends to give two good reasons why we need to remain in the EU. Yours never came up as a reason because Britain has good relations with other Countries and we would soon  be back to standing on our own two feet instead of being milked by the EU.

The EU is the ones who will have the problems because those poorer countries who found it too expensive which we all had to pay billions to bail out will seriously think of leaving too.

We do not need the EU...

Much as it galls me to agree with superflounce, I think she's right and you're wrong. Brexit may not be as bad as the worst predictions, but it'll be bad enough. We'll still have to do business with the EU, and abide by their rules, but we'll have no say in those rules.

[Harrowby Hall]

That is really nonsense...  Britain has been able to stand on it's own feet well before the USA came into existence.
We still have the common wealth and we have been able to cope before and after the EU. When it comes to GB we can stand alone and do not need the EU. Even the Queen before the referendum would ask her dinner guests and friends to give two good reasons why we need to remain in the EU. Yours never came up as a reason because Britain has good relations with other Countries and we would soon  be back to standing on our own two feet instead of being milked by the EU.

The EU is the ones who will have the problems because those poorer countries who found it too expensive which we all had to pay billions to bail out will seriously think of leaving too.

We do not need the EU...

Just about all the Brexiteers I know present a picture rather like the one you do: based firmly in the past and totally disregarding the fact that the future will be different. Apart from anything else the majority of the the people who voted for leave will not be around to "enjoy" the fruits of their action - they will be dead, leaving the people who did want to remain to clear up the catastrophic mess the produced.

Forget the Commonwealth - it no longer exists in the form that you appear to imagine. Australia and New Zealand may have a lingering ... err .... fondness for the "mother country" but it is nothing more that that. Why on earth should they divert their profitable and well establish trade in foodstuff with the likes of Japan  - for nothing more than sentiment? The Jewel of the Empire, India, already controls one of the few remnants of the UK motor industry. For how much longer will JLR remain in the West Midlands when there is a plant being developed in Slovakia?

As for Britain (well, it will probably be just England - Scotland will have become independent and joined the EU and the island of Ireland will contain a single, unified nation) there was once, only a few hundred years ago, a time when England was a European offshore runt. The most powerful country, a great seafaring nation, was Portugal - how things change ...

And as far as your revelations about Buckingham Palace are concerned ... I hope that illegal substances are not responsible for your fantasies. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Yours never came up as a reason because Britain has good relations with other Countries and we would soon  be back to standing on our own two feet instead of being milked by the EU.

Good relations count for nothing in trade - unless you have a trade deal you will be trading on punitive WTO terms and that will massively harm the UK.

Leaving the EU will mean that we lose dozens of fantastic deals with countries across the globe that we currently can benefit from as a member. We will start from scratch with all of those countries, needing to negotiate new deals before we can even start thinking of deals which we don't currently have. And negotiating trade deals takes years - I think the average for a relatively simple deal is 4 years. Canada (the one many brexiteers keep talking about) took over 7 years from start of negotiations.

And we are not being milked by the EU - the benefits purely in economic terms of being an EU member state far outweigh the costs of membership. And there are all the other benefits of cooperation, travel, work rights etc etc.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are bound to be deaths due to changed traffic arrangements. A false turn here a lorry door opened there.
A Plod not understanding their instructions etc.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Regarding the 100 truck manston test by the department of transport., drivers are reporting to BBC Kent that the turnings at Manston are too tight for artics.

[SteveH]

Regarding the 100 truck manston test by the department of transport., drivers are reporting to BBC Kent that the turnings at Manston are too tight for artics.

Is the minimum radius an artic circle?

[Robbie]

Arctic rolls are quite tightly rolled. Arctic Monkeys jump from tree to tree.

[Aruntraveller]

Coming back to the original question how safe did Anna Soubry look today:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tory-mp-anna-soubry-called-nazi-by-chanting-protesters-live-on-bbc-news/ar-BBRVaeG?MSCC=1546903932&ocid=ientp

As well as this being very worrying, it is also of interest that the people protesting her seem to be totally unaware as to one of the main reasons historically for the EU being in existence. It would be funny, if it weren't so dangerous.

I still keep thinking to myself just look who you have enabled Mr Cameron.

[Nearly Sane]

I think we need an element of being careful here. Lots of this has been going on. That said, some of this would have got you a breach of the peace generally

[Harrowby Hall]

I don't understand, NS. Are you justifying this behaviour?

[Aruntraveller]

I think we need an element of being careful here. Lots of this has been going on. That said, some of this would have got you a breach of the peace generally

I'm more than aware of the fact that a lot of it has been going on. See this which I've copied from my FB feed from June 2016 (the bit in bold is me giving an explanation of context the reply speaks for itself) :

Friends IF you have doubts about Remaining - please read the following which was a reply to me when I queried our ability to get meaningful trade deals outside the EU - as you will see it is a very insightful, meaningful post and persuades me of how I've got the EU so wrong! (apologies already for the language):

"Stupid cunt, you really havent red up on this have you. China will h ve us a trade deal, they have even daid so. Im glad the last world war was in the 30s coz cunts like you dont have a spine and you are an embarrassment to this country and the men and women that have fought and died for this country. If I ever see you in the street I will teach ou the meaning of being britsihsh you patheic embarrassment of a cunt"

That was when I decided to largely step away from discussing issues on FB with anyone except friends.

I am however worried about the atmosphere that all this takes place in. This isn't happening in a vacuum. We have a very serious situation with mental health care and whilst the numpties berating Ms Soubry currently may not pose a physical threat, what do they encourage?

PS I also love the irony of them calling AS a Nazi.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm more than aware of the fact that a lot of it has been going on. See this which I've copied from my FB feed from June 2016 (the bit in bold is me giving an explanation of context the reply speaks for itself) :

That was when I decided to largely step away from discussing issues on FB with anyone except friends.

I am however worried about the atmosphere that all this takes place in. This isn't happening in a vacuum. We have a very serious situation with mental health care and whilst the numpties berating Ms Soubry currently may not pose a physical threat, what do they encourage?

PS I also love the irony of them calling AS a Nazi.

Agree with all of that. I'm just wary of portraying it as somehow the country being especially divided. Lots of politicians have received abuse for many years, and there is a tendency to attribute this to the fact of having had the referendum somehow causing the division rather than the referendum being a symptom. Indeed elsewhere I have seen it suggested that the abuse of Soubry was in some way caused by the Scottish referendum.


I think there is a coarsening of the public debate but that it is too easy to allow that to create a them and us discussion which becomes a vicious circle.

[Harrowby Hall]

I believe that Margaret Thatcher characterised referenda as being tools used by dictators and autocrats. It is ironic that the use of the device by one of her successors for party management purposes has resulted in enlivening a segment of the adult population who appear to be attracted to the control methods favoured by dictators.

I fear that things can only get worse ...

[Nearly Sane]

I believe that Margaret Thatcher characterised referenda as being tools used by dictators and autocrats. It is ironic that the use of the device by one of her successors for party management purposes has resulted in enlivening a segment of the adult population who appear to be attracted to the control methods favoured by dictators.

I fear that things can only get worse ...

As covered in my reply to trentvoyager, I think attributing this to the use of referendums makes little sense. There have been divisions before, and there are similar divisions elsewhere where there has been no equivalent referendums.

[SteveH]

Britain had never had a national referendum before the 1975 one, and it was almost 36 years before the next one, on the alternative vote. Now we seem to have the bloody things every other year. Much as it galls me to say it, Thatcher was right about them.

[Nearly Sane]

Britain had never had a national referendum before the 1975 one, and it was almost 36 years before the next one, on the alternative vote. Now we seem to have the bloody things every other year. Much as it galls me to say it, Thatcher was right about them.

We've only ever had 3. And they are as far as I can see irrelevant to this behaviour.