Religion has stepped on science's turf?

[Enki]

Humns are less than fully human because of sin. What's incoherent about that?

I'm not into mocking Christianity, but all I see in the gospels is a man called Jesus who had some outstanding good points but, nevertheless, showed faults, which pointed to the fact that he was in fact a human being. I would suggest that I am fully human and I have faults too. The idea that if one doesn't sin(in the Biblical sense) this makes one 'fully human seems quite ridiculous to me. Is this what Orthodox Christianity teaches?

[SteveH]

How can someone or something with faults be fully whatever-it-is?

[jeremyp]

Humns are less than fully human because of sin. What's incoherent about that?

How can something be less than fully what it is?

Christians tell us that humans are sinners. How can a god be fully human if that god is free of sin?

It seems to me that you are saying that Jesus is actually some other entity of which we are imperfect projections. Jesus is fully a
Platonic human and we are not because of our imperfections. However, if that is the case, you should choose your language more carefully, instead of confusing the issue.

[jeremyp]

How can someone or something with faults be fully whatever-it-is?

Because having faults is an intrinsic part of the whatever it is.

[SteveH]

Oh, fuck this for a game of soldiers - I've had enough of arguing with idiots.

[Stranger]

How can someone or something with faults be fully whatever-it-is?

So why did god make us faulty, how is that our fault, and why does god making itself into a human and then killing itself horribly make a difference?

[jeremyp]

Oh, fuck this for a game of soldiers - I've had enough of arguing with idiots.

So you give up and you resort to insults. Fair enough. You can't win this one because Christianity is incoherent.

[Roses]

Oh, fuck this for a game of soldiers - I've had enough of arguing with idiots.

In which case you are arguing with yourself.

[SteveH]

In which case you are arguing with yourself.

Most people grow out of that kind of joke when they leave primary school.

[ProfessorDavey]

Humns are less than fully human because of sin. What's incoherent about that?

But the very concept of sin is a human concept.

Being sinful may make us less ethical, trustworthy etc etc, but it doesn't make us any less human. Indeed to suggest as such is a very, very dangerous move. History is full of examples of people being considered to be 'not fully human' as a means to justify the most appalling persecution. And to allow that to be based on a definition of sinfulness that is under the control often of those very perpetrators of persecution is a very problematic position.

[Roses]

Good and bad are characteristics of human nature. To suggest people who do wrong are less than human is incorrect.

[SteveH]

This.

[Enki]

How can someone or something with faults be fully whatever-it-is?

Steve,

Human being is not another word for 'perfect'.

A person who is born physically disabled has a faulty physical frame in some way. That doesn't make them any the less fully human. My brother on law was born with cerebral palsy. This doesn't make him any the less fully human.

If a person is born to some extent educationally subnormal(your link suggests, for instance, that the two men are dim witted) that also doesn't make them any the less fully human.

What you are suggesting is that we can label people fully or partially human on the basis that the Jesus portrayed in the gospels is fully human and everybody else is only partially human. I couldn't even begin to understand why, but I do find that the very idea leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth.

[wigginhall]

Agree, enki.  To say that we fall short of perfection seems obvious, but to say this is less than human, is distinctly creepy.  I was just sitting in our allotment, very mild, and everything is falling into decay, but there are also buds on some plants.  I like the mixture of decay and new life.  It is perfect in a way.

[Roses]

Is my adopted Down's Syndrome son less than human because he is quite severely mentally disabled? He is a thoroughly decent man, whom everyone who comes into contact with him is fond.

[Rhiannon]

The things that make us 'fallen' are effectively the things that not only make us human, but that make us adult. The tree of knowledge of good and evil took us out of infantilism and into adulthood. We aren't less than, but more than. Nothing illustrates the childishness of religion more than the idea that perfect equals innocent.

[Rhiannon]

But the very concept of sin is a human concept.

Being sinful may make us less ethical, trustworthy etc etc, but it doesn't make us any less human. Indeed to suggest as such is a very, very dangerous move. History is full of examples of people of people being considered to be 'not fully human' as a means to justify the most appalling persecution. And to allow that to be based on a definition of sinfulness that is under the control often of those very perpetrators of persecution is a very problematic position.

Yes, 'sin' may include thieving and lying but it also includes certain kinds of loving sexual relationships, buying more stuff than you need etc. Things that don't make anyone dangerous in the slightest, but, according to this scenario, less than human.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No it doesn't. That's just some weird kind of masochism. How would someone forgive, say, a rapist by 'taking it upon themselves'? That just sounds like a way to prolong suffering.

When you forgive someone you have to carry on with the hurt they have caused you. You have chosen not to repay like for like and have withheld justice from them. So in effect you have chosen to carry the full burden.

The masochism you are alluding to is so weird frankly it sounds as if you have no clue.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What do you say?

More the middle option.
I'm not convinced everyone wants God and I'm not convinced God doesn't want the salvation of all.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the very concept of sin is a human concept.

Being sinful may make us less ethical, trustworthy etc etc, but it doesn't make us any less human. Indeed to suggest as such is a very, very dangerous move. History is full of examples of people of people being considered to be 'not fully human' as a means to justify the most appalling persecution. And to allow that to be based on a definition of sinfulness that is under the control often of those very perpetrators of persecution is a very problematic position.

It makes us less than what we can be and it is a symptom of something that societies and religion have tried to keep the lid on for millennia.......total IDmageddon and/or Egogeddon. Of course there have been places where this has surfaced Rwanda, Cambodia, Former Yugoslavia.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The things that make us 'fallen' are effectively the things that not only make us human, but that make us adult. The tree of knowledge of good and evil took us out of infantilism and into adulthood. We aren't less than, but more than. Nothing illustrates the childishness of religion more than the idea that perfect equals innocent.

I notice your list of fallenness is nowhere near comprehensive and is some of the greatest spin I've seen in ages.

[wigginhall]

The things that make us 'fallen' are effectively the things that not only make us human, but that make us adult. The tree of knowledge of good and evil took us out of infantilism and into adulthood. We aren't less than, but more than. Nothing illustrates the childishness of religion more than the idea that perfect equals innocent.

Terrific stuff.  I think some Christians realize that our badness is part of the mix, like salt in food, hence the phrase "Felix culpa" for Adam and Eve, (happy fault), but then it jars with other Christian ideas, for example, being less than human. Watching the current Attenborough series, you can see how harsh nature is, and we are part of it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of which addresses the fact that the whole thing is carpet-chewing mad: god deciding we need forgiveness for being what it made us and then deciding that the only way it can happen is by a bizarre sadomasochistic act of torturing itself to death.

Are you not alienated from God?
How did that happen?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Terrific stuff.  I think some Christians realize that our badness is part of the mix, like salt in food, hence the phrase "Felix culpa" for Adam and Eve, (happy fault), but then it jars with other Christian ideas, for example, being less than human. Watching the current Attenborough series, you can see how harsh nature is, and we are part of it.

Except Rhiannon's interpretation of the tree of knowledge isn't Christian.
And she inevitably has to resort to presenting humanity as some kind of well meaning coffee morning whose worse sin is the "equivalent of a mimsy "sorry I'm late everyone I couldn't find my car keys".

[jeremyp]

Most people grow out of that kind of joke when they leave primary school.

Says the man who just posted that he was leaving in a strop whilst calling the other posters idiots.