Religion has stepped on science's turf?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of which addresses the fact that the whole thing is carpet-chewing mad: god deciding we need forgiveness for being what it made us and then deciding that the only way it can happen is by a bizarre sadomasochistic act of torturing itself to death.

Have you read the New Testament?

[jeremyp]

When you forgive someone you have to carry on with the hurt they have caused you.

No you don't.

In fact, quite often forgiveness and getting over the hurt come together.

You have chosen not to repay like for like and have withheld justice from them. So in effect you have chosen to carry the full burden.

Rubbish. I can forgive somebody who mugs me even if they face justice and go to prison anyway. I don't have to carry the burden at all. I don't have to replace them in prison.

The masochism you are alluding to is so weird frankly it sounds as if you have no clue.

Honestly, it sounds more like you have no clue what forgiveness is about.

[Stranger]

Are you not alienated from God?

Are you not alienated from the Norse Goddess Fraya?

Since I have no reason to think that any of the many gods that humans have believed in actually exist, I don't consider myself alienated from any of them.

Have you read the New Testament?

Yes. Have you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No you don't.

In fact, quite often forgiveness and getting over the hurt come together.

Rubbish. I can forgive somebody who mugs me even if they face justice and go to prison anyway. I don't have to carry the burden at all. I don't have to replace them in prison.
Honestly, it sounds more like you have no clue what forgiveness is about.

You may have to carry the scars Jeremy and you may have to underwrite financial costs. You have agreed if you like that the damage you have incurred is the only cost. YOU HAVE TAKEN THE COST OF THE EVENT ON YOURSELF.
PRISON, unless you have insisted that that is justice and has nothing to do with it.
If your testimony given freely ends in them going to jail then you have insisted on serving Justice rather than forgiveness.

[jeremyp]

You may have to carry the scars Jeremy and you may have to underwrite financial costs.

Scars usually heal with time. Why would I have to take the financial cost? Are you thinking forgiving a person for wronging you is the same as forgiving a debt? Again I have to question if you know what forgiving really is.

If your testimony given freely ends in them going to jail then you have insisted on serving Justice rather than forgiveness.

If I stand up in court and say I forgive them, how is that going to stop them from going to prison? Even if it does, how does it put me in the frame for going to prison instead?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are you not alienated from the Norse Goddess Fraya?

WhatFreya makes up with Nordic Amazonian splendour she rather lacks in theological comprehensivity being part of a team and not even being the team leader.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Scars usually heal with time. Why would I have to take the financial cost? Are you thinking forgiving a person for wronging you is the same as forgiving a debt? Again I have to question if you know what forgiving really is.
If I stand up in court and say I forgive them, how is that going to stop them from going to prison? Even if it does, how does it put me in the frame for going to prison instead?

Jeremy you've gone into loophole finding mode

If you forgive them you do not press charges.

Also the state might feel the perp has transgressed against it. An enlightened judge might balance your forgiveness with the states needs in sentencing.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Scars usually heal with time. Why would I have to take the financial cost? Are you thinking forgiving a person for wronging you is the same as forgiving a debt? Again I have to question if you know what forgiving really is.

Criminals are repeatedly referred to as paying a debt to society. It is metaphorical and allegorical and analogous.

[ProfessorDavey]

It makes us less than what we can be and it is a symptom of something that societies and religion have tried to keep the lid on for millennia.......total IDmageddon and/or Egogeddon. Of course there have been places where this has surfaced Rwanda, Cambodia, Former Yugoslavia.

None of which means we are less human.

I'm sorry but when people start talking about people being less than fully human, round the corner genocide lies.

[Rhiannon]

When you forgive someone you have to carry on with the hurt they have caused you. You have chosen not to repay like for like and have withheld justice from them. So in effect you have chosen to carry the full burden.

The masochism you are alluding to is so weird frankly it sounds as if you have no clue.

You are a moral coward.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of which means we are less human.

I'm sorry but when people start talking about people being less than fully human, round the corner genocide lies.

That occurs when people say you are less human than I.

To declare that all are fallen including "I" takes a step.

[ProfessorDavey]

That occurs when people say you are less human than I.

To declare that all are fallen including "I" takes a step.

Nope once you start determining that human-defined sin is a symbol that individuals are not fully human then those who define that sin will necessarily ascribe that 'less than fully' human state in a graded manner - such that some are deemed to be fully human and others not fully human. As I've said before history is littered with the bodies of those that have been murdered as a result of that mantra.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nope once you start determining that human-defined sin is a symbol that individuals are not fully human then those who define that sin will necessarily ascribe that 'less than fully' human state in a graded manner - such that some are deemed to be fully human and others not fully human. As I've said before history is littered with the bodies of those that have been murdered as a result of that mantra.

Slippery slope argument.
If one said that one would be straying from all sorts of doctrine.

New Atheism where Atheists are denoted as Brights and religious people as bad, thick, or referred to as ducklings and sheep though, well.....

[jeremyp]

Jeremy you've gone into loophole finding mode

Nope. Not me.

If you forgive them you do not press charges.

Really? Can you show me where it says forgiving somebody means you have to stop the judicial proceedings against them?

Of course the Christian situation is worse than that: God doesn't just stop the judicial proceedings against us, he redirects them at himself.

Also the state might feel the perp has transgressed against it. An enlightened judge might balance your forgiveness with the states needs in sentencing.

That might be the case, but he or she wouldn't demand that I serve the balance of the sentence.

[jeremyp]

Criminals are repeatedly referred to as paying a debt to society. It is metaphorical and allegorical and analogous.

But it's not an actual debt though.

[jeremyp]

New Atheism where Atheists are denoted as Brights and religious people as bad, thick, or referred to as ducklings and sheep though, well.....

Only the finest whataboutery from Vlad.

This line of discussion raised from my assertion that the Christian god cannot exist because Christianity is completely incoherent. If certain atheist doctrines are also incoherent, it is irrelevant. Atheists don't pretend to have a god that is perfect.

[ProfessorDavey]

Slippery slope argument.
If one said that one would be straying from all sorts of doctrine.

But the whole notion that being human or otherwise is somehow doctrinal is non-sensical. And the suggestion that whether or not a person is wholly human or not is down to someone else's doctrine is also deeply offensive and deeply dangerous.

[ProfessorDavey]

That occurs when people say you are less human than I.

To declare that all are fallen including "I" takes a step.

What you appear to be implying is that no humans are actually ... err ... properly human. Bizarre notion.

[SteveH]

Steve,

Human being is not another word for 'perfect'.

A person who is born physically disabled has a faulty physical frame in some way. That doesn't make them any the less fully human. My brother on law was born with cerebral palsy. This doesn't make him any the less fully human.

If a person is born to some extent educationally subnormal(your link suggests, for instance, that the two men are dim witted) that also doesn't make them any the less fully human.

What you are suggesting is that we can label people fully or partially human on the basis that the Jesus portrayed in the gospels is fully human and everybody else is only partially human. I couldn't even begin to understand why, but I do find that the very idea leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth.

Load of sentimental bollocks.

[Rhiannon]

Load of sentimental bollocks.

You and Vlad are on form on this thread. No wonder your church is in its death throes.

[SteveH]

OK, ok - being disabled doesn't make you less than fully human, but I didn't suggest for a moment that it did; that was brought in by others, sanctimoniously trying to make me feel guilty. Sin makes us less than fully human is what I said. Anyway, it seems an odd argument that the one person since the fall who was sinless and perfect (according to Christisan theology) is less than human on that account. Having known disabled people, and been married to one for 25 years, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they are less than human; but certainly I, who am not disabled (well I'm rather deaf nowadays, but haven't always been) am not less than human on that account!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You and Vlad are on form on this thread. No wonder your church is in its death throes.

Load of over dramatic bollocks.

[SteveH]

You and Vlad are on form on this thread. No wonder your church is in its death throes.

You'd rather I was a sanctimonious, pecksniffian creeping-jesus type?

[Rhiannon]

Load of over dramatic bollocks.

Don’t fucking speak to me.

[Rhiannon]

You'd rather I was a sanctimonious, pecksniffian creeping-jesus type?

I’d rather you had the humanity to see Enki’s point.