Religion has stepped on science's turf?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What are you on about - what on earth is the relevance of John to Thalidomide. You are talking rubbish - John was very clearly linking the disability and illness of an individual to their sinfulness. 'See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.' Sin again and your disabilities will be revisited and in a worse manner.

Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.
Jesus leaves non disabled people too with the advice to sin no more.

[ProfessorDavey]

Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.

Refusing to answer the question.

I asked - give me a single example of an illness or disability where the known aetiology is a particular 'sin'. Perhaps you don't understand the medical term aetiology - it means cause.

So to re-phrase - give me a single example of the illness or disability where the known cause is a particular sin.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I would, because we aren't talking here about direct cause/effect but general sin and general illness/disability. But even in the case of specific 'sin' - how on earth do you make that link. Can you give me a single example of an illness or disability where the known aetiology is a particular 'sin'. I don't.

General sin is a theological concept I am unfamiliar with. Explain.

General illness/disability? Not heard of that either.

When Distillers ltd were taken to court for causing the thalidomide disaster, was their defence that it wasn't them it was the chemical reaction?

When there is full antibiotic resistance due to misuse of antibiotics, will the defence be it wasn't us it was the bacteria that got more resistance and we could go on and on.........

[ProfessorDavey]

This is a deliberate distortion of the truth. The historical Christian position is that illness and disability are the result of the fall in a general sense but EMPHATICALLY NOT in a particular sense: the sick and disabled are not more sinful than the reswt; indeed, they have often, especially the mentally handicapped, been regarded as especially holy. Only Charismaniacs and other heretics blame individual sufferers for their suffering, and even the more intelligent (or less stupid) of them warn against doing that.
Criticise Christianity for what it does teach, and has taught in the past, by all means, but don't make stuff up and even, as here, actually invert the historical teaching of the church.

It matters not whether we are talking about general or specific - you have very clearly indicated that christian teaching is that 'illness and disability are the result of the fall' (your words) - thanks for confirming my earlier comments.

Regardless of whether this is general or specific the notion that illnesses and disabilities are linked to sinfulness is a pretty grotesque notion.

[SteveH]

Refusing to answer the question.

I asked - give me a single example of an illness or disability where the known aetiology is a particular 'sin'. Perhaps you don't understand the medical term aetiology - it means cause.

So to re-phrase - give me a single example of the illness or disability where the known cause is a particular sin.

Gluttony causes obesity, which causes heart attacks, strokes, and arthritis.

[ProfessorDavey]

Gluttony causes obesity, which causes heart attacks, strokes, and arthritis.

No it doesn't - obesity (note not gluttony) may be a predisposing factor, but not a causal one. Plenty of people who suffer from those conditions are not obese. And in plenty of cases people who are obese isn't due to over eating.

And plenty of people who over-eat do not suffer from those conditions - there is no causal link.

Try again.

[Rhiannon]

Gluttony causes obesity, which causes heart attacks, strokes, and arthritis.

But there are other causes of obesity. In fact we now know that the way food is manufactured is a big cause of obesity, as is chronic stress, and poverty. Overeating is disordered eating in the same way that under-eating (anorexia) is. Yet you see all of this as 'sin' and blame someone for being ill.

[ProfessorDavey]

Gluttony causes obesity, which causes heart attacks, strokes, and arthritis.

So you are now full-on justifying a link between what you see as sin and illnesses and medical conditions in a very specific sense - i.e. individual sins, individual has heart attack. Yet earlier you were claiming:

'The historical Christian position is that illness and disability are the result of the fall in a general sense but EMPHATICALLY NOT in a particular sense'

'Christianity has never taught that disability and sickness are due to sin'

So which is it Steve, you seem to be arguing against yourself.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It matters not whether we are talking about general or specific - you have very clearly indicated that christian teaching is that 'illness and disability are the result of the fall' (your words) - thanks for confirming my earlier comments.

Regardless of whether this is general or specific the notion that illnesses and disabilities are linked to sinfulness is a pretty grotesque notion.

As I recall it the original charge was that Christians viewed disabled people as less than human which itself was a get out from a previous charge of humans per se being less than human.

In other words you are shifting the goalposts and are now down too aetiology.

You have painted yourself into a corner and now seem to be denying any responsibility or affect due to behaviour.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you are now full-on justifying a link between what you see as sin and illnesses and medical conditions in a very specific sense - i.e. individual sins, individual has heart attack. Yet earlier you were claiming:

'The historical Christian position is that illness and disability are the result of the fall in a general sense but EMPHATICALLY NOT in a particular sense'

'Christianity has never taught that disability and sickness are due to sin'

So which is it Steve, you seem to be arguing against yourself.

I'm afraid the orthodox Christian world has never believed collectively in original sin.

[ProfessorDavey]

In other words you are shifting the goalposts and are now down too aetiology.

Nope - I am being clear and consistent.

You claimed:
'Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.'

Some I've asked you to provide an example of this - i.e. where the disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning.

You are ducking the question.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

'Christianity has never taught that disability and sickness are due to sin'

I think that remains true since the NT in no way has a aquinine conception of the overall consequence of the fall or was Augustine ever universal.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nope - I am being clear and consistent.

You claimed:
'Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.'

Some I've asked you to provide an example of this - i.e. where the disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning.

You are ducking the question.

I believe I referred to sin causing the spread of disease if I deviated from this it was inadvertent.

[ProfessorDavey]

I believe I referred to sin causing the spread of disease if I deviated from this it was inadvertent.

No you didn't you claimed:

'Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.'

Nothing to do with the spread of disease.

But now you have mentioned this, there are 2 things you need to provide:

An example where disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning.

And

An example where the spread of disease is specifically caused by sinning

[Roses]

Sinless, obviously! Do pay attention at the back!

Who says so?

[ProfessorDavey]

I believe I referred to sin causing the spread of disease if I deviated from this it was inadvertent.

And of course the very notion of 'sin' and its definition is entirely subjected and not one I recognise anyhow.

[ProfessorDavey]

When Distillers ltd were taken to court for causing the thalidomide disaster, was their defence that it wasn't them it was the chemical reaction?

And did that court case conclude that Distillers had sinned Vlad? I would be exceptionally surprised if the words 'sin', 'sinned' or 'sinful' appear anywhere in their judgement.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No you didn't you claimed:

'Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.'

Nothing to do with the spread of disease.

But now you have mentioned this, there are 2 things you need to provide:

An example where disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning.

And

An example where the spread of disease is specifically caused by sinning

My manifesto on this is in reply#157 or thereabouts where I talk about the spread of disease
So you have got it wrong again.

Your question is therefore spurious and ignores what I have said.

An example of the spread of disease caused by wrongdoing? AIDs in Africa spread by the Catholic Churches policy on contraception.

[Roses]

'Sin' is not always referring to wrongdoing, but something the sky fairy isn't supposed to like. That is ironic, as it is the biggest 'sinner' there ever was, if the things claimed for it were true.  

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And did that court case conclude that Distillers had sinned Vlad? I would be exceptionally surprised if the words 'sin', 'sinned' or 'sinful' appear anywhere in their judgement.

Probably not but the word guilty does I'll wager.
When are you going to answer my questions about general sin and general illness and disability.

[ProfessorDavey]

An example of the spread of disease caused by wrongdoing? AIDs in Africa spread by the Catholic Churches policy on contraception.

Which comes back to my point about the very concept of sin being subjective.

The catholic church would refute that their policy is sinful.

From my perspective the word sin is entirely inappropriate - I think the policy of the catholic church is entirely wrong, but I'd never use the word sinful. But we are talking about individual sin and individual effect in terms of illness and disability - I refer you back to your own quote ''Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.'

So we are still waiting for you to provide an example where:

disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which comes back to my point about the very concept of sin being subjective.

The catholic church would refute that their policy is sinful.

From my perspective the word sin is entirely inappropriate - I think the policy of the catholic church is entirely wrong, but I'd never use the word sinful. But we are talking about individual sin and individual effect in terms of illness and disability - I refer you back to your own quote ''Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.'

So we are still waiting for you to provide an example where:

disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning

I bet my example threw you though.

[ProfessorDavey]

I bet my example threw you though.

Not really - all it did was confirm the pointless subjectivity of the notion.

Of course the catholic church would claim that a different, but equally subjective, notion of sin is responsible for the spread of HIV infection.

[ProfessorDavey]

I bet my example threw you though.

Nice distraction tactic. Still waiting for you to provide an example where:

disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning

[Sebastian Toe]

Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.

Make good your claim please.