Religion has stepped on science's turf?

[ProfessorDavey]

Been trying to get him to for some while, but all we get is the typical Vlad obfuscation and distraction tactics.

[ProfessorDavey]

Been trying to get him to for some while, but all we get is the typical Vlad obfuscation and distraction tactics.

What is entirely clear however, is that Vlad and Steve H are now in full-on justifying mode that there is a link between sin and disability/illness, regardless of whether this is in a generic manner (people sin and therefore people get ill and have disabilities) or a specific manner (this person has sinned and therefore has become ill or developed a disability).

Both notions are grotesque in the extreme. The notion that my father's fatal cancer was the result of his sins or the sins of humanity is a disgusting notion.

[Roses]

Nice distraction tactic. Still waiting for you to provide an example where:

disability (or illness/medical condition) is specifically caused by that individual sinning

I hope you aren't holding your breath?

[ProfessorDavey]

I hope you aren't holding your breath?

I'm not

[SteveH]

OK, ok - my comment about gluttony was ill-thought-out.

[Roses]

To suggest illness is caused by 'sin' is a slap in the face to all those billions of people whose illnesses have nothing to do with behaving unwisely. My husband's brain aneurysm was due to no fault on his part. My osteoarthritis, which started in my 30s has nothing to do with gluttony. My badly fractured arm was caused by my stupidity in walking up the bridle path after heavy rain. Whilst that was very unwise, I doubt it could be termed a 'sin'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which comes back to my point about the very concept of sin being subjective.

There you go again off on a tangent.
Christianity is morally realist and this argument is about Church doctrine  and practice which as Steve H has pointed out you seem to be selectively revisionist and frankly confused. It completely ignores the churches healing mission for example.

[Roses]

There you go again off on a tangent.
Christianity is morally realist and this argument is about Church doctinr and practice which as Steve H has pointed out you seem to be selectively revisionist and frankly confused. It completely ignores the churches healing mission for example.

What healing mission?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What healing mission?

The commission of Jesus to heal the sick from which many healing orders were derived.

[Roses]

The commission of Jesus to heal the sick from which many healing orders were derived.

Hocus pocus.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hocus pocus.

The great hospitals are hardly hocus pocus.

[BeRational]

The great hospitals are hardly hocus pocus.

No but faith healers are!

They are all frauds. Do you see ambulances taking sick people to church or hospital?

[Roses]

The great hospitals are hardly hocus pocus.

I assumed you were taking about scam merchants like Benny Hinn.

[Sebastian Toe]

Some disabilities are linked to individual sin or wrongdoing.

In your own words, which of course must be obeyed!

Positive assertion, please demonstrate it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I assumed you were taking about scam merchants like Benny Hinn.

No Im not most of Christianity's  healing ministry has occured under the principle that the age of charismatic gifts had ended.and  only dead saints  were alleged to produce  miracles.

[SteveH]

To suggest illness is caused by 'sin' is a slap in the face to all those billions of people whose illnesses have nothing to do with behaving unwisely. My husband's brain aneurysm was due to no fault on his part. My osteoarthritis, which started in my 30s has nothing to do with gluttony. My badly fractured arm was caused by my stupidity in walking up the bridle path after heavy rain. Whilst that was very unwise, I doubt it could be termed a 'sin'.

The Christian view historically has been that suffering in general and sin in general are caused by the fall, but not that specific sufferers are being punished for specific sins.

[jeremyp]

No Im not most of Christianity's  healing ministry has occured under the principle that the age of charismatic gifts had ended.and  only dead saints  were alleged to produce  miracles.

Since this whole train of conversation comes from my assertion that the Christian gods can't exist because a lot of what Christianity says is completely barking, perhaps you would like to give a rationalisation as to why God has stopped giving his followers healing powers.

Also why, given God is supposed to be a living god, did he stop inspiring men to write scriptures?

[Rhiannon]

Since this whole train of conversation comes from my assertion that the Christian gods can't exist because a lot of what Christianity says is completely barking, perhaps you would like to give a rationalisation as to why God has stopped giving his followers healing powers.

Also why, given God is supposed to be a living god, did he stop inspiring men to write scriptures?

Well if you take the Book of Mormon, A Course in Miracles and Conversations with God (to name but a few) it seems he hasn't stopped. But they are wrong and the others are true because, er, reasons.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Since this whole train of conversation comes from my assertion that the Christian gods can't exist because a lot of what Christianity says is completely barking, perhaps you would like to give a rationalisation as to why God has stopped giving his followers healing powers.

Also why, given God is supposed to be a living god, did he stop inspiring men to write scriptures?

Christian gods? There seems to be no level of ignorance about christianity below which antitheism will not fall.

Whether you think healing does not work or does the commission by Jesus and its following contradicts claims that God supports illness etc or that Gods ordinance ends with heres your punishment,minions.

As it happens the Catholic church is the second largest provider of health care in the world after state provision. That wouldnt be the case if the theological basis had been what the unskilled theologians around here suggest.

[jeremyp]

Christian gods? There seems to be no level of ignorance about christianity below which antitheism will not fall.

That was actually a typo, I meant to write “Christian god” but, since you bring it up: We have God the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Satan to name but four deities and minor deities in Christianity.

And yet Christians insist their religion is monotheistic as if it really mattered and they cobble together some guff avbout them being three gods but only one god at the same time.

[Rhiannon]

That was actually a typo, I meant to write “Christian god” but, since you bring it up: We have God the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Satan to name but four deities and minor deities in Christianity.

And yet Christians insist their religion is monotheistic as if it really mattered and they cobble together some guff avbout them being three gods but only one god at the same time.

You forgot Mary.

[SteveH]

Phyllis was right: the ignorance is alarming.

[Rhiannon]

Oh come on. The cult of Mary replaced the old goddess cults. In some places she’s still more important than Jesus. She’s the Divine Feminine in all but name.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That was actually a typo, I meant to write “Christian god” but, since you bring it up: We have God the father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Satan to name but four deities and minor deities in Christianity.

And yet Christians insist their religion is monotheistic as if it really mattered and they cobble together some guff avbout them being three gods but only one god at the same time.

The trinity formulation is that Jesus is no less God than the holy spirit the presence and activity of God than the transcendent father.

Mary is not a person of God. Why persons of God? Because God  is never an impersonal force.

[Roses]

The trinity formulation is that Jesus is no less God than the holy spirit the presence and activity of God than the transcendent father.

Mary is not a person of God. Why persons of God? Because God  is never an impersonal force.

The idea of the so called 'trinity' makes no sense at all, imo.