Rapist encouraged to have access to his victim's child

[Rhiannon]

Even if that is true it should still be reported, imo.

Do you know what happens when you report a rape?

[Roses]

Do you know what happens when you report a rape?

However unpleasant, it has to be done, imo. I would always report a crime, even if my dearest and dearest were the perpetrators, not to do so is aiding and abetting a criminal, imo.

[Rhiannon]

However unpleasant, it has to be done, imo. I would always report a crime, even if my dearest and dearest were the perpetrators, not to do so is aiding and abetting a criminal, imo.

Like I said. Callous.

[Roses]

Like I said. Callous.

Callous or not, it is the right thing to do. Anyway you and I will have to agree to differ, you don't see it my way, and I certainly don't see it your way.

[Rhiannon]

Something I only learned recently from a key worker in the field is that women - and men too presumably - who go to court as victims of rape are strongly discouraged from accepting counselling about the rape until the trial is over as the defence can use it to discredit the victim. It may even be a reason for a case to be dropped.

[Rhiannon]

Callous or not, it is the right thing to do. Anyway you and I will have to agree to differ, you don't see it my way, and I certainly don't see it your way.

I don't have to agree with anything. You are blaming victims for being too fearful, ashamed or traumatised to go through more trauma and shaming. It's disgusting.

[Aruntraveller]

However unpleasant, it has to be done, imo. I would always report a crime, even if my dearest and dearest were the perpetrators, not to do so is aiding and abetting a criminal, imo.

Really?

Would you have reported gay people prior to 1967? Would you report a mother stealing to feed children? Would you report a drunk in charge of a bicycle (yes this is a crime)?

I suggest we all, in some circumstances, decide that discretion is the better part of valour justice.

Either that or we are cold blooded, unfeeling people who are incapable of any kind of empathy.

[SteveH]

Being drunk in charge of a bicycle ought to be a crime (assuming you mean actually riding it).
I don't know what to think between Rhiannon and LR, to be honest. I can see both their points of view.

[jeremyp]

Defend yourself. Since legal aid has been cut from family proceedings most single mothers have to represent themselves in court. Even legal aid for abuse victims is strictly means tested. If they can be expected to do so given the incredibly high stakes then I don't see why a rapist shouldn't. But never fear, Jeremy, because there are plenty of lawyers prepared to drag a woman's reputation through the mud in every conceivable way in order to get their clients off the hook. Family lawyers prepared to do the work for free are thinner on the ground.

You make a very strong argument that the legal aid system is not fit for purpose and treats poor people very unfairly but not that anybody should be denied legal representation.

[jeremyp]

'Consent' isn't signalled by her previous sexual history, or whatever she was wearing, and if she was drunk then the likelihood is that she didn't consent.

I completely agree. As a rule, we don't allow the jury to know the previous convictions of the accused because they are supposed to try the case based on the facts of the case alone. I find it odd that we don't extend the same courtesy to rape victims with respect to their sexual history.

I have had a number of men that I have spoken to tell me quite clearly that if a woman dresses a certain way and then gets raped she only has herself to blame. Another actually said to me that he doesn't believe that rapes happen that often because it's impossible to penetrate a woman that is kicking and screaming.

That's not my view nor the view of anybody I know, male or female, at least I hope not.

[Rhiannon]

You make a very strong argument that the legal aid system is not fit for purpose and treats poor people very unfairly but not that anybody should be denied legal representation.

I'm not arguing that anyone should be denied legal representation. I'm just disgusted with the morality of some lawyers. There are some very clear cases in both criminal and family courts where lawyers take the money of those who are pretty disgusting human beings and who are using the courts to hurt others. There are also lawyers who enjoy being a part of that process. It'd be nice to think that there are some cases that lawyers would find too repulsive to touch (the man who sexually abused his children using the courts to re-abuse his family for example) but that isn't so and it's just how it is. I've been told by an insider that law attracts narcissists tat aren't hugely dissimilar to those that they represent.

[Rhiannon]

That's not my view nor the view of anybody I know, male or female, at least I hope not.

I'm surprised how often I come across it. It's sad.

[Rhiannon]

Being drunk in charge of a bicycle ought to be a crime (assuming you mean actually riding it).
I don't know what to think between Rhiannon and LR, to be honest. I can see both their points of view.

If reporting a rape was likely to secure a conviction and if it would be handled well by those in authority then LR may - may - have a point. But so few reported cases make it to court, let alone end up with a conviction. A victim will be questioned on every aspect of their lives - whether they have casual sex, have ever had an STI, or an abortion. They will be treated with suspicion at every turn in a way that doesn't happen if you were reporting a robbery or other property crime. They will be told not to accept help for their trauma until after the case has ended. And if the rape was recent then they will be told to undress, they will be subjected to internal examinations and photographed. They will not be allowed to shower or put other clothes on until all those procedures have been completed and that may take hours. If they choose to shower first or wait to heal then the evidence is weaker. Most cases get dropped though lack of evidence or because the victim has had enough of being re-traumatised. If they do make it to court then there is a whole new lot of trauma to face and every aspect of their lives will be picked over by the defence.

I admire the courage of every woman and man who goes through that. But I do not blame anyone who decides that the odds are stacked against them and it isn't worth the additional  pain and trauma.

[Sassy]

A crime has to be reported immediately...especially sexual assault because forensics need to process the evidence and ensure it is there to aid prosecution.
But if we deliberately overlook and ignore such evidence then conviction is harder to attain.

[SteveH]

Like I said. Callous.

I don't completely agree with LR about always reporting crime (no change there, then...) but why is her opinion callous?

[Rhiannon]

I don't completely agree with LR about always reporting crime (no change there, then...) but why is her opinion callous?

Because she is showing no awareness or empathy for the fact that reporting a crime adds (often pointless) suffering on top of the suffering already endured, she is blaming them for 'not doing their duty' or some such shit, and she is also blaming victims for the crimes that their rapist may go on to commit. I got into my rapist's car and I froze when it happened. What is the point in reporting that? I wouldn't get past the front desk.

[Robbie]

Oh for goodness sakes Rhi, stop making all this so personal. Not the first time.
As it happens I agree with you on this issue but I wouldn't advertise my own experiences.

By now you should also realise LR has no clue, sees everything in black and white unless it's an issue of which she has experience - I hope she never does have personal experience; Steven is speaking objectively.

[Rhiannon]

Oh for goodness sakes Rhi, stop making all this so personal. Not the first time.
As it happens I agree with you on this issue but I wouldn't advertise my own experiences.

By now you should also realise LR has no clue, sees everything in black and white unless it's an issue of which she has experience - I hope she never does have personal experience; Steven is speaking objectively.

Seriously?

I'm trying to use my experience to illustrate a point. Because who else will here? If we don't use personal experience then its just hypothetical waffle and there's no reason why Steve or anyone else should listen. Voices need to be heard. Of all the people who I thought would accuse me of playing the victim it wasn't you. Women shouldn't try to silence other women. That's just nasty.

[Rhiannon]

You know what? Fuck this place.

[Roses]

Oh for goodness sakes Rhi, stop making all this so personal. Not the first time.
As it happens I agree with you on this issue but I wouldn't advertise my own experiences.

By now you should also realise LR has no clue, sees everything in black and white unless it's an issue of which she has experience - I hope she never does have personal experience; Steven is speaking objectively.

I know all about sexual assault from personal experience.  I was inappropriately touched by the pastor of the church I attended when I was 14. I reported it to my parents but they didn't wish to believe it too be true. When I was 18 an uncle by marriage, who was naked, dragged me into his bedroom, pushed me onto the bed, and tried to raped me. I kicked him so hard where it hurt, he even apologised. I told my father, who believed me, he and his brothers sorted him out, he never tried to assault me again.

[Robbie]

I am sorry Little Roses. I remember you saying about the pastor once before. Glad your dad and his brothers sorted out that uncle, horrible experience.

Please accept my apology.

[Roses]

I am sorry Little Roses. I remember you saying about the pastor once before. Glad your dad and his brothers sorted out that uncle, horrible experience.

Please accept my apology.

Thanks Robbie , I have amended my previous post.

[Robbie]

That was kind, thank you.