About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Charismatic gifts were exercised after pentecost.
In laterNT epistles the emphasis is on pastoral matters ,church organisation and ethical matters.
In patristic literature the emphasis is the same.
In medievel times the onus in supernatural gifts is on post mortem miracles by the sainted.
Indeed quite early on charismatic gifts are attached more to the fringe such as the montanists.
By the early modern times the mainstream view is that the apostolic age in which charismatic gifts exercised by the living had ended with the fathers centuries before.
Appearences of the gifts were very much associated with the fringe and occasional.

Aside from this An openly and avowed Charismatic church only appears at the beginning of the 20 th century and only penetrates the mainstream churches at the latter part of the 20th century.

[SteveH]

Charisbloodymatics, and their older brethren Pentecostalists, are extreme, dangerous, irresponsible idiots.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Charisbloodymatics, and their older brethren Pentecostalists, are extreme, dangerous, irresponsible idiots.

My main concern is that the extremes act as a typifier for antitheists on this forum. Remember when sometimes it seemed as if Fred Phelps was held up as a typical christian?

[Roses]

Charisbloodymatics, and their older brethren Pentecostalists, are extreme, dangerous, irresponsible idiots.

I agree, having been unfortunate enough to have had too much experience of that unpleasant garbage during my youth.

[Aruntraveller]

My main concern is that the extremes act as a typifier for antitheists on this forum

New irony meter required.

[Anchorman]

Charismatic gifts were exercised after pentecost. In laterNT epistles the emphasis is on pastoral matters ,church organisation and ethical matters. In patristic literature the emphasis is the same. In medievel times the onus in supernatural gifts is on post mortem miracles by the sainted. Indeed quite early on charismatic gifts are attached more to the fringe such as the montanists. By the early modern times the mainstream view is that the apostolic age in which charismatic gifts exercised by the living had ended with the fathers centuries before. Appearences of the gifts were very much associated with the fringe and occasional. Aside from this An openly and avowed Charismatic church only appears at the beginning of the 20 th century and only penetrates the mainstream churches at the latter part of the 20th century.

I used to categorise charismatics as a bunch of Yankee influenced nut jobs....till I started to use the charisma. That was with the discussion of a Presbyterian Charismatic minister from Prestwick...howzat for a triple  oxymoron? He showed me that there are no reasons in the New Testament for the withdrawal of the gifts, and, indeed, they are a 'by product' ofthe work of the Holy Spirit as 'Parakletos' as per John 15. It appears that, as the church became structured - and beaurocratic - the gifts were 'suppressed' and confined t clergy - with no reason whatsoever. That they have re-emerged over the last two centuries is not really any cause for concern, except in those denominations where they are elevated to the detriment of the study of Scripture, preaching, sacrameent and theology. They can - and do - work in mainstream denominations. I recommend you read theAnglican Michael Green's "I believe in the Holy Spirit' for a reasoned argument for their use.

[Anchorman]

Charisbloodymatics, and their older brethren Pentecostalists, are extreme, dangerous, irresponsible idiots.

Whoa!
Sweeping generalisation there!
Yes, there are some off the wall extreme denominations; there are also many Charismatic Anglican, Presbyterian,RC, Methodist, and, yes, even Pentecostalists - who excercise the charisma quietly, without fuss or boasting about it.

[SteveH]

I used to categorise charismatics as a bunch of Yankee influenced nut jobs....till I started to use the charisma. That was with the discussion of a Presbyterian Charismatic minister from Prestwick...howzat for a triple  oxymoron? He showed me that there are no reasons in the New Testament for the withdrawal of the gifts, and, indeed, they are a 'by product' ofthe work of the Holy Spirit as 'Parakletos' as per John 15. It appears that, as the church became structured - and beaurocratic - the gifts were 'suppressed' and confined t clergy - with no reason whatsoever. That they have re-emerged over the last two centuries is not really any cause for concern, except in those denominations where they are elevated to the detriment of the study of Scripture, preaching, sacrameent and theology. They can - and do - work in mainstream denominations. I recommend you read theAnglican Michael Green's "I believe in the Holy Spirit' for a reasoned argument for their use.

In that case, why don't they actually appear?
I spent 15 years as a charismatic, to my undying shame, back in the 80s, and saw healings and miracles regularly prayed for, and prayed for them myself, but saw absolutely nothing that couldn't most easily be explained as self-deception: the lame, didn't walk, the blind didn't see, the deaf didn't hear, and two young people, one with MS and one with cancer, died on scedule despite fervent prayer, which served only to raise false hopes, and make their suffering worse. As for the other gifts: anyone can talk gobbledegook, and prohesy was usually a load of vaguely encouraging, ego-tickling stuff delivered in a ridiculous pastiche of 17th-century English, as were intepretations of tongues.
As for the fruit: they were notably selfish in their attitude to the traditionalists, refusing to give an inch in their insistence on their ghastly, repetitive, glutinously sentimental, often ungrammatical and theologically dubious if not downright heretical "worship songs"; and very narrow-minded as regards social issues.

[Roses]

As I have mentioned before when my husband suffered his brain haemorrhage a 'born again' friend of ours was suffering from a brain tumour. Prayers for healing were said for both of them, my husband survived our friend died. As devastating as my husband's demise would have been, at least our children were adults and leading their own lives. Our friend's children were still quite young and his death was more than traumatic for his wife and kids.

When I posed the question as to why my atheist husband was the fortunate one, I was told god spared him so he could retrieve his lost faith. I pointed out that my husband claimed that whilst still in a coma he had an experience which convinced him beyond all doubt no god or afterlife existed.

[Anchorman]

In that case, why don't they actually appear?
I spent 15 years as a charismatic, to my undying shame, back in the 80s, and saw healings and miracles regularly prayed for, and prayed for them myself, but saw absolutely nothing that couldn't most easily be explained as self-deception: the lame, didn't walk, the blind didn't see, the deaf didn't hear, and two young people, one with MS and one with cancer, died on scedule despite fervent prayer, which served only to raise false hopes, and make their suffering worse. As for the other gifts: anyone can talk gobbledegook, and prohesy was usually a load of vaguely encouraging, ego-tickling stuff delivered in a ridiculous pastiche of 17th-century English, as were intepretations of tongues.
As for the fruit: they were notably selfish in their attitude to the traditionalists, refusing to give an inch in their insistence on their ghastly, repetitive, glutinously sentimental, often ungrammatical and theologically dubious if not downright heretical "worship songs"; and very narrow-minded as regards social issues.

   





As my friend, Arthur Kent, said, the list Paul gives for the charisma is not finite.
Sometimes, admin, or preaching...or cleaning, washing, supervising, etc, are every bit as important in advancing the Kingdom as healing, knowledge, or, dare I say it, tongues?
I don't know why you have not received them...maybe it's becausee you don't need them?
I wasn't looking for the 'filling of the Spirit'.
God, however,had other ideas.

[ad_orientem]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit never faded. However, psychobabble was never one of them.

[Roses]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit never faded. However, psychobabble was never one of them.

There is no evidence the HS exists, hopefully not, as its so called 'gifts' are not something one would wish to have, imo.

[Enki]

I must say I found this entry on the whole subject of glossolalia(from the Skeptics Dictionary)  to be quite fascinating. I've never really thought about it much before. One of the interesting conclusions suggested in this article is the difference between this and meditation. There seems to be some evidence that glossolalia is linked to a decrease in frontal lobe function, and increased activity in the parietal brain region, with the suggestion that for those who practise it, control is loosened  whilst intense personal experience is strengthened. With meditation, on the other hand, it is suggested that the the opposite occurs, pointing to the idea of focus and control being strengthened whilst sensory activity was reduced.

http://skepdic.com/glossol.html

[Anchorman]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit never faded. However, psychobabble was never one of them.

No-one said it was.

[SteveH]

   As my friend, Arthur Kent, said, the list Paul gives for the charisma is not finite.
Sometimes, admin, or preaching...or cleaning, washing, supervising, etc, are every bit as important in advancing the Kingdom as healing, knowledge, or, dare I say it, tongues?
I don't know why you have not received them...maybe it's becausee you don't need them?
I wasn't looking for the 'filling of the Spirit'.
God, however,had other ideas.

Who said I didn't receive them? I spoke in tongues - i.e. gabbled gobbledegook - with the best of them, and occasionally "interpreted" and "prophesied" as well, though at least I avoided the ridiculous 17th-century-English-pastiche. Miracles and healings, though, never happened, though we managed to convince ourselves that they did - usually invisible, self-diagnosed ailments. I did witness one example of "Chinese whispers" exaggeration of a supposed healing: a teenager at the church suffered a serious injury in a game of football, and it was expected that he'd have to spend weeks lying flat on his back to avoid a detached retina. He was, of course, prayed for, and in the event his recovery was unexpectedly quick, and he suffered no permanent ill-effects. Well, you can attribute that to the prayer if you like, and I wouldn't necessarily even disagree, but some time later, I heard a particularly hysterical and stupid female member of the congregation tell my then wife that the boy had been blinded, and told he'd be blind for life, but he'd been prayed for and had instantly received his sight! Complete bollocks, as I knew, but the daft old biddy was obviously completely sincere. That case was the only example that could possibly be attributed to prayer - and then doubtfully.
I eventually left that church, and for almost exactly a year renounced Christianity and joined what was then called the British Humanist Association, because I could no longer avoid seeing the mis-match between the claims and the reality. I eventualy came back to liberal, Tillichian Christianity, and started going to another church, but it was charismatic evangelicalism which destroyed my faith, and liberal Christianity which restored it, contrary to what the happy-clappys like to claim.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Steve H,

...a teenager at the church suffered a serious injury in a game of football, and it was expected that he'd have to spend weeks lying flat on his back to avoid a detached retina. He was, of course, prayed for, and in the event his recovery was unexpectedly quick, and he suffered no permanent ill-effects. Well, you can attribute that to the prayer if you like...

And speaking of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, by chance only today I came across a nice example of it. Turns out that women who own horses live longer than women who don't. Therefore horse ownership increases life expectancy right?

Oh hang on though - horse ownership is an expensive business, and it also turns out that those who can afford it can also afford access to better healthcare.

Oh well.   

[Anchorman]

Paul states that the gifts were for the building of the church. If those who use them are used to increase thechuech, and men and women are rought to the place where they can decide for Christ, then I d onot see a problem. If, however, the charism become the focus of the church, ratger than thesaving grace of Christ Jesus, then that church is in error; pure and simple.

[SteveH]

Paul states that the gifts were for the building of the church. If those who use them are used to increase thechuech, and men and women are rought to the place where they can decide for Christ, then I d onot see a problem. If, however, the charism become the focus of the church, ratger than thesaving grace of Christ Jesus, then that church is in error; pure and simple.

So why do healings, miracles etc. never happen, in any church? You haven't answered that.

[Robbie]

Steven I never dreamed you had such experience of the charismatic branch of the church. Wow. They were very interesting posts, thanks for sharing with us. I don't have personal experience, only read about. Glad you got out of it but it must have been difficult at the time.

As I have mentioned before ...

Yes, many times.

[Anchorman]

So why do healings, miracles etc. never happen, in any church? You haven't answered that.

Because they have.
Niot very often, and not like some holy national health service AKA Benny Hinn, but, like the original miracles of Christ as reciorded inScripture, to illustrate a point or help growth.
Should we document them - or even be surprised if, and when they happen?
Not if we accept that the Holy Spirit has neverbeen withdrawn, nor will He be.

[Anchorman]

Steven I never dreamed you had such experience of the charismatic branch of the church. Wow. They were very interesting posts, thanks for sharing with us. I don't have personal experience, only read about. Glad you got out of it but it must have been difficult at the time.

Yes, many times.

Havw you ever read  "Chasing the Dragon" or its'sequal, "Acrack in thw wasll" by Jackie Pullinger? Both books document the remarkable story of her workamongst the drug addicts, prostitures and triads of Hong Kong, and the foundation and spread of the "St Stephen society".
Thought provoking, and awhole new slant on just why the charisma appear to have been manifest for a specific purpose.

[Alan Burns]

So why do healings, miracles etc. never happen, in any church? You haven't answered that.

I have witnessed many spiritual healings within the charismatic movement, which have far more value in the bigger picture of our lives than physical healings.

[SteveH]

I have witnessed many spiritual healings within the charismatic movement, which have far more value in the bigger picture of our lives than physical healings.

That's exactly the sort of bollocks that charismatics come up with to explain away the lack of results from their prayers.

[BeRational]

I have witnessed many spiritual healings within the charismatic movement, which have far more value in the bigger picture of our lives than physical healings.

No you haven't

[Roses]

I have witnessed many spiritual healings within the charismatic movement, which have far more value in the bigger picture of our lives than physical healings.

Yeh right. You do seem to have am overactive imagination if your posts are an indication of your mindset.