Author Topic: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.  (Read 16606 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #150 on: December 12, 2018, 07:01:46 PM »
Floo,

Quote
OK then, if it is so simple how does one set about proving or disproving the existence of god?

Relevance? The point was about asserting as a fact that there's no verifiable evidence for god. What verifiable evidence would or should consist of is a different question.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #151 on: December 12, 2018, 07:03:31 PM »
NS,

Quote
In one sense, it is very simple but it's also a bit of a rabbit hole


https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/

Thanks for the link.

Yes, but for the purpose of the argument I was making the simple version is fine I think.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #152 on: December 12, 2018, 07:28:38 PM »
NS,

Thanks for the link.

Yes, but for the purpose of the argument I was making the simple version is fine I think.
I agree. I have spent too much time discussing induction elsewhere though to just  let the statement that it's simple overall to have no challenge.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 07:32:27 PM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #153 on: December 12, 2018, 07:42:01 PM »
Jeremy,

No they’re not – just the unwarranted ones obtained from induction. Think black swans.
All statements about the real worlds are obtained from induction.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #154 on: December 12, 2018, 07:46:02 PM »
NS,

Quote
I agree. I have spent too much time discussing induction elsewhere though to just  let the statement that it's simple overall to have no challenge.

Fair enough.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #155 on: December 12, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »
Jeremy,

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All statements about the real worlds are obtained from induction.

How does that concern the argument that ascribing the status of fact to a statement that can only be known to be a fact with omniscience is logically false? 
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jeremyp

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #156 on: December 12, 2018, 08:05:40 PM »
Jeremy,

How does that concern the argument that ascribing the status of fact to a statement that can only be known to be a fact with omniscience is logically false?
Because if we accept your reasoning, it means there are no facts because nothing can be known to be a fact without omniscience.

LR’s statement is considered a fact because there is no verifiable evidence of God. I suppose there is an outside chance that somebody will find the said evidence but do you honestly think that is likely? I don’t. If you want to be really anal, I guess you could say she should have prefixed the statement with “it’s almost certain that”. If you are going to insist on that, then I’m going to hold you to it for every statement you make about the real World. You won’t even be able to say it is round without qualifying it.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2018, 09:43:04 AM »
Jeremy,

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Because if we accept your reasoning, it means there are no facts because nothing can be known to be a fact without omniscience.

It means no such thing. You’ve gone nuclear here: “OK, something logically impossible may not be a fact, but then again all facts rest on premises so any claim of fact is equivalent to any other”.

It fails because, well, do I really need to explain why? All facts are at some level probabilistic – the Sun being 93m miles from the earth is a fact because we have instruments that tell us that but for all I know I’m a piece of junk computer code or brain in a vat and everything “I” think is real isn’t real at all, or maybe there's a global conspiracy among telescope makers to produce incorrect readings. Nonetheless, as this is the world I appear to occupy and have to navigate, we treat such findings as functionally certain facts, verifiable as they are in various practical ways.

Then though we have claims of fact that are unverifiable and sometimes logically impossible too: there’s a teapot orbiting the sun just beyond the range of our instruments to detect it; there is no verifiable evidence for gods (or for leprechauns) etc. You can call these statements claims or assertions or opinions, but you cannot call them facts because they fail the basic requirements of statements that are facts – logical coherence and investigability.

You know this already though - calling anything at all a fact because no statements of fact can ultimately be known to be certain would be chaotic: the fact of taking the stairs being equivalent to the fact of stepping out of the window and floating to the ground would collapse immediately you tried it.         

Quote
LR’s statement is considered a fact because there is no verifiable evidence of God.

Considered by whom, and how do you know it to be a fact rather than an opinion that there’s no verifiable evidence for god?

Quote
I suppose there is an outside chance that somebody will find the said evidence but do you honestly think that is likely? I don’t. If you want to be really anal, I guess you could say she should have prefixed the statement with “it’s almost certain that”. If you are going to insist on that, then I’m going to hold you to it for every statement you make about the real World. You won’t even be able to say it is round without qualifying it.

Doesn’t work. I don’t think it’s likely either (and I’m leaving aside for now the problems with relating evidence conceptually to a claim of the supernatural), but that’s not the point. Terms used for workaday, colloquial purposes are often used imprecisely (or plain wrongly), but in a conversation about epistemological accuracy you cannot just claim something to be a fact (or “FACT” as Floo put it) when necessarily it cannot be a fact for the reasons I’ve just explained.   
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 10:27:05 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Roses

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2018, 10:56:38 AM »
It is a FACT that there is no VERIFIABLE evidence for god.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2018, 11:03:48 AM »
Floo,

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It is a FACT that there is no VERIFIABLE evidence for god.

Maybe if you used 20pt font and a purple typeface for the word "FACT" that would help even more turn this non-fact into a fact?
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Roses

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2018, 11:45:57 AM »
Floo,

Maybe if you used 20pt font and a purple typeface for the word "FACT" that would help even more turn this non-fact into a fact?


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wigginhall

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2018, 11:52:20 AM »
It is a FACT that there is no VERIFIABLE evidence for god.

How do you know that?
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Roses

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #162 on: December 13, 2018, 11:59:36 AM »
How do you know that?


Has anyone come up with any? If they have, I will be proved to be wrong, until then...……..!
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Gordon

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #163 on: December 13, 2018, 12:00:32 PM »
Clearly the spirit of Mr Gradgrind lives on.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #164 on: December 13, 2018, 12:22:46 PM »
Floo,

Quote
Has anyone come up with any?

Relevance? That no-one had come up with a black swan before the first one was found didn't mean that it was a fact that they didn't exist.

Quote
If they have, I will be proved to be wrong, until then...……..!

No. You're already "proved wrong" because you cannot know the non-existence of something to be a fact (or even a FACT) unless you're also omniscient. 
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Roses

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2018, 12:10:18 PM »
Floo,

Relevance? That no-one had come up with a black swan before the first one was found didn't mean that it was a fact that they didn't exist.

No. You're already "proved wrong" because you cannot know the non-existence of something to be a fact (or even a FACT) unless you're also omniscient.

Until someone comes up with verifiable evidence to prove beyond any doubt god exists, I will carry on believing I am right.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #166 on: December 13, 2018, 12:26:41 PM »
Floo,

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Until someone comes up with verifiable evidence to prove beyond any doubt god exists, I will carry on believing I am right.

A belief that there’s no verifiable evidence for gods (or for leprechauns) is one to which you’re perfectly entitled. I share that belief. What you can’t do though is to demonstrate that belief also to be a fact – at least not unless you are omniscient.
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SteveH

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2018, 02:10:17 PM »
How do you know that?
She doesn't. The needle's got stuck, as usual.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2018, 02:21:57 PM »
Floo,

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But I am omniscient.

How do you know that?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #169 on: December 13, 2018, 02:31:33 PM »
Just by way of a coda, the same question would apply to a god. For those who like to claim an omniscient god, how would such a god know he was omniscient (even if he was)?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:30:30 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #170 on: December 13, 2018, 06:14:58 PM »
Jeremy,

It means no such thing. You’ve gone nuclear here: “OK, something logically impossible may not be a fact, but then again all facts rest on premises so any claim of fact is equivalent to any other”.

It fails because, well, do I really need to explain why? All facts are at some level probabilistic – the Sun being 93m miles from the earth is a fact because we have instruments that tell us that but for all I know I’m a piece of junk computer code or brain in a vat and everything “I” think is real isn’t real at all, or maybe there's a global conspiracy among telescope makers to produce incorrect readings. Nonetheless, as this is the world I appear to occupy and have to navigate, we treat such findings as functionally certain facts, verifiable as they are in various practical ways.

Then though we have claims of fact that are unverifiable and sometimes logically impossible too: there’s a teapot orbiting the sun just beyond the range of our instruments to detect it; there is no verifiable evidence for gods (or for leprechauns) etc. You can call these statements claims or assertions or opinions, but you cannot call them facts because they fail the basic requirements of statements that are facts – logical coherence and investigability.

You know this already though - calling anything at all a fact because no statements of fact can ultimately be known to be certain would be chaotic: the fact of taking the stairs being equivalent to the fact of stepping out of the window and floating to the ground would collapse immediately you tried it.         

Considered by whom, and how do you know it to be a fact rather than an opinion that there’s no verifiable evidence for god?

Doesn’t work. I don’t think it’s likely either (and I’m leaving aside for now the problems with relating evidence conceptually to a claim of the supernatural), but that’s not the point. Terms used for workaday, colloquial purposes are often used imprecisely (or plain wrongly), but in a conversation about epistemological accuracy you cannot just claim something to be a fact (or “FACT” as Floo put it) when necessarily it cannot be a fact for the reasons I’ve just explained.   

Tip-top post. A belter.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #171 on: December 13, 2018, 06:17:30 PM »
Hi Dicky,

Quote
Tip-top post. A belter.

Kind of you to say so good Sir. I promise that I just put your last Reply in the Searching for God thread on the Forum Best Bits page before I read this!
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jeremyp

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #172 on: December 13, 2018, 06:29:42 PM »
Jeremy,

It means no such thing. You’ve gone nuclear here: “OK, something logically impossible may not be a fact, but then again all facts rest on premises so any claim of fact is equivalent to any other”.
No, you are the one who has gone nuclear.

Quote
It fails because, well, do I really need to explain why? All facts are at some level probabilistic – the Sun being 93m miles from the earth is a fact because we have instruments that tell us that but for all I know I’m a piece of junk computer code or brain in a vat and everything “I” think is real isn’t real at all, or maybe there's a global conspiracy among telescope makers to produce incorrect readings. Nonetheless, as this is the world I appear to occupy and have to navigate, we treat such findings as functionally certain facts, verifiable as they are in various practical ways.
All facts are probabilistic. Agreed.

"There is no verifiable evidence for God" is a statement that the probability of such evidence existing is very low. I think this is uncontroversial because, nobody has ever presented any in spite of trying for hundreds of years.

Quote
Then though we have claims of fact that are unverifiable and sometimes logically impossible too: there’s a teapot orbiting the sun just beyond the range of our instruments to detect it; there is no verifiable evidence for gods (or for leprechauns) etc. You can call these statements claims or assertions or opinions, but you cannot call them facts because they fail the basic requirements of statements that are facts – logical coherence and investigability.

Except that the claim "there is no verifiable evidence for x" is investigable. You just have to survey human knowledge (which is finite). You can't guarantee that somebody won't make an observation that provides verifiable evidence in the future, but again, it seems improbable considering how hard people are looking and anyway, it would be in the future not now.
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jeremyp

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #173 on: December 13, 2018, 06:30:12 PM »
Tip-top post. A belter.
Except for it being wrong, I agree.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: About the Charismatic gifts and their exercise.
« Reply #174 on: December 13, 2018, 06:50:23 PM »
Jeremy,

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No, you are the one who has gone nuclear.

As I actually did the opposite of that – ie, explained that your going nuclear (effectively “OK, something logically impossible may not be a fact, but then again all facts rest on premises so any claim of fact is equivalent to any other”) fails – you’re going to have to explain why you think that’s true.   

Quote
All facts are probabilistic. Agreed.

"There is no verifiable evidence for God" is a statement that the probability of such evidence existing is very low. I think this is uncontroversial because, nobody has ever presented any in spite of trying for hundreds of years.

You may well think the probability to be very low (so do I), but that wasn’t the claim. The claim was that there is no evidence, not that there’s a low probability of it. This claim was described as a fact, which it necessarily cannot be for the reasons I explained (because it fails the basic constituents of facts – coherence and investigability).   

Quote
Except that the claim "there is no verifiable evidence for x" is investigable. You just have to survey human knowledge (which is finite). You can't guarantee that somebody won't make an observation that provides verifiable evidence in the future, but again, it seems improbable considering how hard people are looking and anyway, it would be in the future not now.

Love that “just have to survey human knowledge”! Finite or not, unless you have the knowledge of every possible place that such evidence could be and the means to look in every one of them, you still have the same problem: the claim necessarily cannot be a fact (despite Floo’s possibly dubious assertion that she is in fact omniscient).
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:57:23 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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