Author Topic: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?  (Read 12563 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2018, 06:48:03 PM »
Show your working out.
My working out is that it your claim that they are possible and that they are the only 2 possibilities, and there is no working out from you so how can you assert we know that?


Oh I will add that you agree with me and in posting

'Sorry I meant to say that if we accept that the universe popped into existence or that it has been around forever in some form we can no longer BAULK at those capabilities assigned to anything else.'

You do your own acceptance that asking me for my "working out" was specious.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 06:54:47 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2018, 06:52:02 PM »
Sorry I meant to say that if we accept that the universe popped into existence or that it has been around forever in some form we can no longer BAULK at those capabilities assigned to anything else.
And if we don't accept those are necessarily possible as you claimed, or that they are the only 2 possibilities as you claimed?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2018, 06:59:24 PM »
And if we don't accept those are necessarily possible as you claimed, or that they are the only 2 possibilities as you claimed?
Ok why not?why are you not accepting them?

Would one of your options be God......or the famous "we don't know but it isn't God"?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 07:01:45 PM by Phyllis Tyne »

Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2018, 07:09:02 PM »
Ok why not?why are you not accepting them?

Would one of your options be God......or the famous "we don't know but it isn't God"?
Because they haven't bern demonstrated. Your claim, your burden of proof.

jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2018, 07:10:39 PM »
Would you agree then that it is a nonsensical statement to say God is very unlikely?
If so when was the last time you responded to it being made on this forum?
I would agree it is impossible to determine the probability of an arbitrary god. However, the probability of an interventionist god must be very low since we see no evidence of it intervening. The Christian god is a logical impossibility, so its probability is 0.
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jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2018, 07:12:01 PM »
Vampires and Leprechauns have apparently a physical phase which carries therefore a probability
Did Jesus have a physical phase?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2018, 07:23:25 PM »
I would agree it is impossible to determine the probability of an arbitrary god. However, the probability of an interventionist god must be very low since we see no evidence of it intervening. The Christian god is a logical impossibility, so its probability is 0.
How would you see evidence of an interventionist god when evidence is defined by your methodology, and the only current methodology that defines evidence is naturalistic?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2018, 07:24:40 PM »
Did Jesus have a physical phase?
As a human, yes....are you comparing the probability of Jesus with the probability of Leprechauns?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2018, 07:31:24 PM »
Because they haven't bern demonstrated. Your claim, your burden of proof.
If we have evidence of something like say the universe we would be justified in saying it either came into being or it has been around for ever.

You seem to be saying we don't know.....therefore naturalism.

jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2018, 07:35:48 PM »
How would you see evidence of an interventionist god when evidence is defined by your methodology, and the only current methodology that defines evidence is naturalistic?
Well surely the definition of an interventionist god is one that can make things happen that wouldn't have happened if the laws of physics were followed. All you have to do then is find some event that is contrary to the laws of physics. There's no verifiable evidence that this has ver happened.

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jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2018, 07:38:33 PM »
As a human, yes
And Jesus is God. Therefore God has a physical phase.

Back of the net! The crowd is on its feet. Vlad is as sick as the proverbial parrot.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2018, 07:44:22 PM »
Well surely the definition of an interventionist god is one that can make things happen that wouldn't have happened if the laws of physics were followed. All you have to do then is find some event that is contrary to the laws of physics. There's no verifiable evidence that this has ver happened.
How would you tell something wasn't in line with the 'laws of physics' given that they are just descriptions of what we observe?

Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2018, 07:45:43 PM »
If we have evidence of something like say the universe we would be justified in saying it either came into being or it has been around for ever.

You seem to be saying we don't know.....therefore naturalism.
I am not making the claim about what the possibilities are, you are. You haven't met the burden of proof.

And I didn't make any claim about naturalism. I presume you mean philosophical naturalism? If so I've told you that I am not a philosophical naturalist on multiple occasions.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 07:48:49 PM by Nearly Sane »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2018, 07:48:37 PM »
Jeremy,

Quote
Well surely the definition of an interventionist god is one that can make things happen that wouldn't have happened if the laws of physics were followed. All you have to do then is find some event that is contrary to the laws of physics. There's no verifiable evidence that this has ver happened.

But the problem with that in epistemological terms is that not only would we have to have a complete understanding of all the laws of physics, but we'd have to find a way to be certain that we did have a complete understanding of all the laws of physics. Just now, something contrary to the laws of physics as we understand them could just be more physics, only with laws we haven't found yet.

That incidentally is why Vlad falls into a hole when he asserts that the absence a a naturalistic explanation must imply a supernatural one. It implies no such thing.
"Don't make me come down there."

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jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2018, 07:49:27 PM »
How would you tell something wasn't in line with the 'laws of physics' given that they are just descriptions of what we observe?
They also make predictions about how physical systems will evolve.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2018, 07:51:36 PM »
And Jesus is God. Therefore God has a physical phase.
Christianity certainly belief that Jesus was fully human and fully God so in his humanity he is certainly in his physical phase however in Jesus interactions many were able to also spot God.

Were these instances physical interaction or is there more to the universe than the physical?
I believe the latter but I'm open to discussion of the first.

jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2018, 07:54:19 PM »
Jeremy,

But the problem with that in epistemological terms is that not only would we have to have a complete understanding of all the laws of physics, but we'd have to find a way to be certain that we did have a complete understanding of all the laws of physics. Just now, something contrary to the laws of physics as we understand them could just be more physics, only with laws we haven't found yet.

That incidentally is why Vlad falls into a hole when he asserts that the absence a a naturalistic explanation must imply a supernatural one. It implies no such thing.
But fortunately we are talking about probabilities. Everything we observe seems to follow physical law, but there is a finite probability that we have made a mistake in our observations or that our understanding of physical law is incorrect, or even that we just missed something.

There seems to be no interventionist god, but we might just have missed the interventions. The probability of that, is, I think, very small.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2018, 07:54:28 PM »
They also make predictions about how physical systems will evolve.
And when something happens that we don't predict we look for methodologically naturalistic explanations abd adjust the 'laws'. You have no non naturalistic methodology so you are not ever able to make any statement about stating there is no evidence. Indeed in that absence the concept of such evidence is meaningless.

jeremyp

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2018, 07:55:26 PM »
Christianity certainly belief that Jesus was fully human and fully God so in his humanity he is certainly in his physical phase however in Jesus interactions many were able to also spot God.

But the point is, it renders your usual response to the leprechaun analogy completely null and void.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2018, 07:56:58 PM »
But fortunately we are talking about probabilities. Everything we observe seems to follow physical law, but there is a finite probability that we have made a mistake in our observations or that our understanding of physical law is incorrect, or even that we just missed something.

There seems to be no interventionist god, but we might just have missed the interventions. The probability of that, is, I think, very small.
Probability is a methodoligical naturalistic concept. Using it to talk about supernatural 'evidence' is a category error and 'not even wrong'.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2018, 08:02:45 PM »
Jeremy,

But the problem with that in epistemological terms is that not only would we have to have a complete understanding of all the laws of physics, but we'd have to find a way to be certain that we did have a complete understanding of all the laws of physics. Just now, something contrary to the laws of physics as we understand them could just be more physics, only with laws we haven't found yet.

That incidentally is why Vlad falls into a hole when he asserts that the absence a a naturalistic explanation must imply a supernatural one. It implies no such thing.
I think you missed the questioning of how, where, and when, in the instance of the universe coming into being or existing forever, the methodological naturalism could be applied to make the necessary naturalistic observations. This issue of course does not apply to parts of the universe.

I think you also look suspiciously like you might be hinting at the laws of nature being separate from the universe.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2018, 08:06:24 PM »
But the point is, it renders your usual response to the leprechaun analogy completely null and void.
Remind me what you think my usual response is?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2018, 08:13:51 PM »
Jeremy,

Quote
But fortunately we are talking about probabilities. Everything we observe seems to follow physical law, but there is a finite probability that we have made a mistake in our observations or that our understanding of physical law is incorrect, or even that we just missed something.

Or that our understanding of physics is incomplete. To take a fairly obvious example, pre-Einstein Newtonian physics was fine (and in many cases still is). When it broke down at the scales of the very small and the vary large though that didn’t imply supernaturalism.

As for probability, we’re talking here about the everyday use of language vs epistemological usage. For the most part “there’s no evidence for god/leprechauns” is ok because it reflects a commonplace reality of the speaker. It’s still though overstating when expressed as a fact rather than as an opinion, unless the speaker is omniscient.     

Quote
There seems to be no interventionist god, but we might just have missed the interventions. The probability of that, is, I think, very small.

So do I, not least because you’d have to extend the same principle to leprechauns, to pixies, and to anything else that popped into anyone’s head. You might also point to the reasoning of asking why a god who wanted you to know he was there would cover his intervening tracks so thoroughly that the universe looks exactly as you’d expect it to look if he wasn’t there at all, and as Mr Occam tells us….

As Nearly will remind us though, probability is itself a naturalistic concept so applying it to claims about the supernatural is necessarily problematic.   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2018, 08:15:43 PM »
Jeremy,

Quote
But the point is, it renders your usual response to the leprechaun analogy completely null and void.

Quite so.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How unlikely are God and/or other "supernatural" things?
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2018, 08:21:12 PM »
There seems to be no interventionist god, but we might just have missed the interventions. The probability of that, is, I think, very small.
Presumably you are claiming that expected results have not materialised.
What results then were you expecting?