Just like Jesus

[Aruntraveller]

Only if you get a custodial sentence of more than a year, I think.

I  know we apparently get the politicians we deserve (although fuck knows what we've done to deserve the current shower of under achievers - and before anyone starts I mean all parties) but I do think we should be holding their toes to the fire a little bit, so  no I'd be meaner than that.

[Roses]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/7167553/MPs-expenses-MPs-can-only-be-sacked-from-Commons-if-they-are-jailed-for-over-a-year.html

[SteveH]

I  know we apparently get the politicians we deserve (although fuck knows what we've done to deserve the current shower of under achievers - and before anyone starts I mean all parties) but I do think we should be holding their toes to the fire a little bit, so  no I'd be meaner than that.

I think I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant that that was the case in fact, rather than that you'd like it to be the case.

[Aruntraveller]

OK. Probably me not clear enough. This is what comes of cooking with wine. There's more in me than in the casserole.... 

[SteveH]

OK. Probably me not clear enough. This is what comes of cooking with wine. There's more in me than in the casserole.... 

I cook with wine. Sometimes I even add it to the food. (Pinched from a poster in the gents' bogs, the Three Horseshoes, Winkwell, Hemel Hempstead.)

[Robbie]

Honestly, how do we know whether or not the woman was wrongly convicted?
I prefer to think the best of people and even if they did do something wrong, they can make up for it in the future.

Can't understand LR's vicious attitude. Does she know more than what we read in the media? Maybe she's never done anything wrong.

It's not up to us anyway, what will be will be, right or wrong. We'll see what happens next month.

[Roses]

Honestly, how do we know whether or not the woman was wrongly convicted?
I prefer to think the best of people and even if they did do something wrong, they can make up for it in the future.

Can't understand LR's vicious attitude. Does she know more than what we read in the media? Maybe she's never done anything wrong.

It's not up to us anyway, what will be will be, right or wrong. We'll see what happens next month.

I have never committed a crime.
That woman blamed someone else for her crime, I hope they send her down for more than 12 months.

[ProfessorDavey]

Honestly, how do we know whether or not the woman was wrongly convicted?

Had she been acquitted how would you know whether she had been wrongly acquitted and was, in fact, guilty.

I prefer to think the best of people and even if they did do something wrong, they can make up for it in the future.

Which is exactly the approach that the law takes - firstly by presuming innocence, and then by applying the standard of proof of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. The law also allows individual who have been convicted and have served their time to rejoin society and to be able to continue their lives without being barred from opportunity etc on the basis of a spent criminal conviction.

And although she would be debarred from retaining her position as an MP if sentenced to a term greater than one year, there is nothing to prevent her from standing again to be elected as an MP once her sentence was completed.

[Aruntraveller]

I have never committed a crime

I have. Would you have me locked up LR?

[Roses]

I have. Would you have me locked up LR?

It depends what you did. I would have no hesitation in contacting the police about anyone I suspected of committing a crime, including my nearest and dearest. I would expect them to report me in similar circumstances.

[Aruntraveller]

It depends what you did. I would have no hesitation in contacting the police about anyone I suspected of committing a crime, including my nearest and dearest. I would expect them to report me in similar circumstances.

I was 19 and gay. Of course I broke the law.

[Roses]

I was 19 and gay. Of course I broke the law.

As you know I don't think being gay should ever have been considered a crime, how on earth can it be wrong to love someone of the same sex? What this woman was convicted of was very wrong indeed, especially as she blamed another person for it.

[Sebastian Toe]

As you know I don't think being gay should ever have been considered a crime, how on earth can it be wrong to love someone of the same sex?

So you would only report crimes that you agree with?

[Robbie]

You're unkind LR. God help anyone related to you who ever commits a crime.
Why do you think Fiona O should serve more than a year in prison? Even if she did speed and lie about it, nobody died. You seem to get pleasure out of things like this. I don't, I hate even the thought of it and tend to believe, when people make mistakes, that they panic and don't really mean to do it. It's called being human.

You are mean in the extreme, I can see you rubbing your hands in glee - as well as feeling self righteous because you've never done anything wrong. Get out more, God help you.

[Aruntraveller]

As you know I don't think being gay should ever have been considered a crime, how on earth can it be wrong to love someone of the same sex? What this woman was convicted of was very wrong indeed, especially as she blamed another person for it.

Plenty of people in the past would have taken the view that it was a crime, therefore I should have been locked up. I think why Robbie is getting so upset with your attitude (correct me if I'm wrong Robbie) is that you seem so unyielding in your viewpoint. Black and white if you like.

Which reminds me of:

 https://youtu.be/SubpzqswJRE

Just the correct amount of melancholy for the New year I feel.

[Robbie]

You're right Trent. I can't bear inflexibility.

However if LR had been out in the world a bit more, going to work and mixing with lots of people, she might see things differently. If you only surround yourself with 'outwardly respectable' people, you won't know anything about real life. Oh, she loves to pounce and blame! I hate it.

I'd better go because this has upset me and it's rare that I feel angry.

Hope everyone has a good new year/hogmanay.

[Robbie]

I've just been reading a review of 'Sometimes I Lie' by Alice Feeney & am going to buy it. I don't know why I hadn't heard of it. Looks exciting. Apparently a television broadcasting outfit have bought the right to make a tv series, for a huge sum. I wondered if anybody else here has read the book.

However I was drawn to the title because of this thread.  Was thinking of sending Fiona O a copy, belated Christmas present. Would she 'get' the irony I wonder.

[Roses]

You're unkind LR. God help anyone related to you who ever commits a crime.
Why do you think Fiona O should serve more than a year in prison? Even if she did speed and lie about it, nobody died. You seem to get pleasure out of things like this. I don't, I hate even the thought of it and tend to believe, when people make mistakes, that they panic and don't really mean to do it. It's called being human.

You are mean in the extreme, I can see you rubbing your hands in glee - as well as feeling self righteous because you've never done anything wrong. Get out more, God help you.

You are a silly woman!  It is wrong not to report a person for committing a crime, it is a crime not to do so, and one could be charged with being an accessory.

[Udayana]

You are a silly woman!  It is wrong not to report a person for committing a crime, it is a crime not to do so, and one could be charged with being an accessory.

There is no general legal requirement to report a crime.

I recommend you read Hugo's Les Misérables or watch one of the various adaptations currently available. There can be a huge difference between legality and morality. 

[wigginhall]

Yes, I don't think it's a crime not to report something suspicious, the exception being terrorism, and for some people, child abuse, e.g., teachers.  Of course, one issue is that you don't know something is a crime, and the general public is not expected to make that assessment.  If I see a guy climbing in a window, he might be locked out.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Had she been acquitted how would you know whether she had been wrongly acquitted and was, in fact, guilty.
Which is exactly the approach that the law takes - firstly by presuming innocence, and then by applying the standard of proof of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. The law also allows individual who have been convicted and have served their time to rejoin society and to be able to continue their lives without being barred from opportunity etc on the basis of a spent criminal conviction.

And although she would be debarred from retaining her position as an MP if sentenced to a term greater than one year, there is nothing to prevent her from standing again to be elected as an MP once her sentence was completed.

Given the miscarriages of justice we hear about, and claims that our justice system and police cannot cope with the workload of investigating crimes, dealing with admin, looking at every piece of evidence, talking to every witness and given that human error or bias or weakness affects judicial outcomes, I would not automatically assume guilt if someone is convicted or innocence if there is lack of evidence or an acquittal. The person may be deemed by society to be guilty or innocent....until an appeal, another appeal, new evidence or witnesses coming to light etc etc ...but individuals in society may privately have their own opinions.

In this particular case, it sounds as if she is guilty if the person she and her brother named as the driver was abroad at the time of the offence - that's a well known scam to put down the name of someone who is abroad as people think the police either won't bother writing abroad or won't follow it up if they don't get a response. She would not have expected that the police would go to the effort of pinpointing the position of her mobile phone and identifying it as having been in the car at the time of the offence. You are required to think very carefully before filling in the form to name the driver so I don't buy the idea that she made a mistake. I think she just thought it was not a big deal to lie on the form.

I have been in a situation where I was asked who was driving my car after it was photographed speeding in an area near my house that had changed its speed limits due to road works while my dad and I had both been out of the country. It could have been me or it could have been my dad - my dad got back to the UK first and had my car but he came to pick me up and return the car and I was going to drop him home. In the few weeks between this routine drive and the notice of intended prosecution, we honestly could not remember if we had swapped drivers once he arrived to return the car. He's my dad and I had just got home after a flight - he may have felt fatherly and wanted to drive himself home with me as passenger and then have me drive myself back, or I might have felt daughterly and wanted to drive my dad home, as he is in his mid-70s and I know he doesn't enjoy driving like he used to when he was younger.   

[Roses]

Yes, I don't think it's a crime not to report something suspicious, the exception being terrorism, and for some people, child abuse, e.g., teachers.  Of course, one issue is that you don't know something is a crime, and the general public is not expected to make that assessment.  If I see a guy climbing in a window, he might be locked out.

If I saw someone climbing through a window I would be suspicious and inform the police, just in case it was a burglar.

[SteveH]

If I saw someone climbing through a window I would be suspicious and inform the police, just in case it was a burglar.

So would any responsible person, but there are more equivocal, borderline cases. Would you report an illegal immigrant who might have escaped poverty and oppression in their home country, or a shoplifter in Tesco who might be stealing food because they are unemployed and desperate?

[Aruntraveller]

or a shoplifter in Tesco who might be stealing food because they are unemployed and desperate?

I was thinking about this as, maybe a year ago, I saw a young woman clearly concealing goods in her coat in Tesco's. The goods were sanitary towels, or some such item from that aisle. I didn't do anything about it. Why should I? The woman was clearly not well off and while ever we have a government who are not willing to take tax avoidance by the likes of Amazon etc, seriously when they know it exists, who am I to get some desperate woman into even more difficulties than she is already in.

I know, some, LR probably, will think that I'm a bleeding heart liberal or something. I'm not. I'm just sick of the people who are poorest getting the blame.

I  can't remember the figures but much more money is put into "regulating" benefits than is put into investigating the tax avoidance, crimes carried out by the very rich in society, be they individuals or corporations. It stinks.

[SteveH]

I was thinking about this as, maybe a year ago, I saw a young woman clearly concealing goods in her coat in Tesco's. The goods were sanitary towels, or some such item from that aisle. I didn't do anything about it. Why should I? The woman was clearly not well off and while ever we have a government who are not willing to take tax avoidance by the likes of Amazon etc, seriously when they know it exists, who am I to get some desperate woman into even more difficulties than she is already in.

I know, some, LR probably, will think that I'm a bleeding heart liberal or something. I'm not. I'm just sick of the people who are poorest getting the blame.

I  can't remember the figures but much more money is put into "regulating" benefits than is put into investigating the tax avoidance, crimes carried out by the very rich in society, be they individuals or corporations. It stinks.

Quite - besides which, stealing from a major supermarket chain such as Tesco or Asda is pretty much a victimless crime, since the big chains can easily afford the loss, and in fact budget for a certain amount of loss due to theft, because, on an annual basis, it is fairly accurately predictable. We all pay slightly more for stuff because of the light-fingered, but no individual suffers significantly. I'm not excusing it, but as crimes go, it's pretty low on the wickedness scale.