Author Topic: Just like Jesus  (Read 10474 times)

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #100 on: January 02, 2019, 10:15:46 PM »
I think that one problem associated with prison is that there appears to be no clear statement of its objectives and no clear evaluation of its effectiveness. The primary purposes of imprisonment are probably punishment (by removing wrong-doers from normal everyday life and forcing them to exist in an impoverished and unstimulating environment) and ensuring public safety (by ridding society of people who would do it harm). A third objective is possibly that of retraining and re-education so that they will be less likely to re-offend.

My guess is that the third of these objectives is the least likely to be pursued. I recall reading, last year that whereas UK prisons are bursting, the Dutch prison population is falling. As a result of the education facilities in Dutch prisons recidivision is falling in the Netherlands and fewer people are going to prison.

I fear that the UK is using the models and systems of the USA in order to cope with convicted criminals. In the USA prisons are like warehouses where convicts are housed for a very long time.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #101 on: January 02, 2019, 10:35:22 PM »
What I said was that those actually making the decision on the basis of the evidence (the Jury) are the best arbiters of the truth at that time. They are the ones who have seen the evidence, been party to the cross examination of the accused, victims, witnesses etc. I didn't say they are always right, but they are in the best position to make the right decision. Certainly better than you or I who have likely one seen snippets of evidence provided through the prism of the media.

Also, don't forget that a jury is 12 people and therefore it is unlikely that the individual biases of one can affect the verdict of all.
They have seen the evidence they are permitted to see.

Due to police cuts, lack of manpower, an incompetent lawyer, mistaken witnesses or experts that are believed, discredited witnesses or experts who should be believed, or numerous other reasons there could be evidence that would create a different truth from the one opposing lawyers are trying to sell them.

Bias is just one factor. Hence, I reserve my judgement abut judicial outcomes. I might have mentioned before that I was involved in a civil case where the defendant was committing perjury in court, and in the middle of his perjured testimony on the stand, asked if he could take a break as he was fasting and it was Ramadan and he had to break his fast with a date and water as it was sunset. That little act may have influenced the judge. Anyway, he won the case as the judge found him more believable.

My husband was a witness for the plaintiff, based on meetings he had with the two parties together at his office (as their accountant) about their informal partnership. One of the claims of the defendant was that no business meetings had ever taken place with my husband and the plaintiff, and that he had never been involved in any informal partnership with the plaintiff. 
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Robbie

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #102 on: January 02, 2019, 10:44:24 PM »
I think that one problem associated with prison is that there appears to be no clear statement of its objectives and no clear evaluation of its effectiveness. The primary purposes of imprisonment are probably punishment (by removing wrong-doers from normal everyday life and forcing them to exist in an impoverished and unstimulating environment) and ensuring public safety (by ridding society of people who would do it harm). A third objective is possibly that of retraining and re-education so that they will be less likely to re-offend.

My guess is that the third of these objectives is the least likely to be pursued. I recall reading, last year that whereas UK prisons are bursting, the Dutch prison population is falling. As a result of the education facilities in Dutch prisons recidivision is falling in the Netherlands and fewer people are going to prison.

I fear that the UK is using the models and systems of the USA in order to cope with convicted criminals. In the USA prisons are like warehouses where convicts are housed for a very long time.

Exactly!
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Gabriella, that was interesting. I'm sure people lie in court all the time and sometimes it works for them as long as they aren't caught out. Jurors and judges are only human too.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #103 on: January 02, 2019, 11:04:15 PM »
Hi Robbie
Exactly!
Prison sometimes/often doesn't seem fit for purpose in the UK, given the violence and drugs. If women's prisons are as bad as men's prisons on the drugs and violence, I would agree with you that there shouldn't be a custodial sentence for obstructing justice in speeding cases. But, I know of a couple of people who have lied on those forms about who was driving, and the risk of a prison sentence might just be one of the few things that deter them from repeatedly speeding and repeatedly lying. They could just try driving slower and accepting the points and paying a higher insurance premium.
_______

Quote
Gabriella, that was interesting. I'm sure people lie in court all the time and sometimes it works for them as long as they aren't caught out. Jurors and judges are only human too.
Yes true. An important lesson from this is never go into a business relationship with someone without spending some money getting a lawyer to draw up a formal agreement. My husband kept telling them to get an agreement drawn up and they kept insisting they were best friends, trusted each other and there was no need to spend money on lawyers plus it would feel awkward, given they were friends, or they would say that yeah they would get around to doing a contract eventually etc etc.

I suspect the Plaintiff had other reasons for not wanting their business relationship on paper - he was going through a divorce or about to go through a divorce so I think that might have had something to do with it. He maybe didn't want his wife looking into that side of things.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2019, 10:11:55 AM »
Gabriella, that was interesting. I'm sure people lie in court all the time and sometimes it works for them as long as they aren't caught out.
Which is exactly why perjury and perverting the course of justice are serious offences and need to be dealt with robustly, including the use of appropriately significant sanctions for those found to have perverted the course of justice.

It seems odd having made this statement that previously you have been arguing that perjury and perverting the course of justice are really minor offences that shouldn't trigger a custodial sentence if deemed appropriate.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2019, 10:24:40 AM »
They have seen the evidence they are permitted to see.

Due to police cuts, lack of manpower, an incompetent lawyer, mistaken witnesses or experts that are believed, discredited witnesses or experts who should be believed, or numerous other reasons there could be evidence that would create a different truth from the one opposing lawyers are trying to sell them.

Bias is just one factor. Hence, I reserve my judgement abut judicial outcomes. I might have mentioned before that I was involved in a civil case where the defendant was committing perjury in court, and in the middle of his perjured testimony on the stand, asked if he could take a break as he was fasting and it was Ramadan and he had to break his fast with a date and water as it was sunset. That little act may have influenced the judge. Anyway, he won the case as the judge found him more believable.

My husband was a witness for the plaintiff, based on meetings he had with the two parties together at his office (as their accountant) about their informal partnership. One of the claims of the defendant was that no business meetings had ever taken place with my husband and the plaintiff, and that he had never been involved in any informal partnership with the plaintiff.
Please read what I said.

I did not say that all court verdicts are right.

I did say that 'it is best to accept that those actually making the decision on the basis of the evidence (the Jury) are the best arbiters of the truth at that time.' In other words that the jury (or Judge in civil cases) are best placed to make the decision.

If you disagree with me can you please tell me who exactly is better placed than the jury (or Judge in civil cases) to make such a decision.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 11:03:17 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Robbie

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2019, 11:05:05 AM »
I get what you're saying Prof. Lying is not a 'good thing' in any circumstances but I sort of understand how people panic. Unreasonably, in my opinion. With a driving offence where no-one was injured, why lie? Makes no sense to me, people make mistakes and if they cough up, they get over it quickly and resolve not to do it again.  If banned from driving, it isn't usually forever.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2019, 11:24:29 AM »
I get what you're saying Prof. Lying is not a 'good thing' in any circumstances but I sort of understand how people panic. Unreasonably, in my opinion. With a driving offence where no-one was injured, why lie? Makes no sense to me, people make mistakes and if they cough up, they get over it quickly and resolve not to do it again.  If banned from driving, it isn't usually forever.

Nowt as queer as folk.
I agree that people sometimes panic and lie. Others are much more deliberate - they lie to conceal and to try get off things.

And that's why the legal process makes it very clear that although you may choose not to comment (albeit your silence may harm your defence in due course) that you must not lie when asked a direct question.

And I also agree that getting a few points on you license or even a short driving ban isn't the end of the world, for some people they will feel that it is better to lie to try to get out of it. Hence the need for perjury to be considered to be a serious offence and for the sanction to be markedly worse than for the original minor offence. Otherwise there is no incentive to stop people simply lying through their teeth when questioned about minor offences.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2019, 03:36:00 PM »
Please read what I said.

I did not say that all court verdicts are right.
You said in reply #15 that "Well the court seems to think she did with a threshold of beyond reasonable doubt. She can, I guess, appeal but if that isn't successful then we will take the usual route of concluding that she did lie."

My response to this was that no, I wouldn't conclude anything based on a court verdict. I would just see it as the verdict of the court, not necessarily one that I would privately agree with. So it depends what you mean by "conclude". The point I was making was that if I had information that wasn't admissible in court that made me think the court had made a mistake, then I wouldn't conclude that she had lied.

Quote
I did say that 'it is best to accept that those actually making the decision on the basis of the evidence (the Jury) are the best arbiters of the truth at that time.' In other words that the jury (or Judge in civil cases) are best placed to make the decision.
If you disagree with me can you please tell me who exactly is better placed than the jury (or Judge in civil cases) to make such a decision.
I would agree that they are the best placed to make the decision but I would not necessarily think truth had anything to do with it. So I wouldn't describe it as them deciding the "truth" but would say that they were best placed to make a decision as to what they thought has been proved in court.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2019, 03:59:01 PM »
You said in reply #15 that "Well the court seems to think she did with a threshold of beyond reasonable doubt. She can, I guess, appeal but if that isn't successful then we will take the usual route of concluding that she did lie."

My response to this was that no, I wouldn't conclude anything based on a court verdict. I would just see it as the verdict of the court, not necessarily one that I would privately agree with. So it depends what you mean by "conclude". The point I was making was that if I had information that wasn't admissible in court that made me think the court had made a mistake, then I wouldn't conclude that she had lied.
My response, when looked at in full, was specifically about whether her colleagues would conclude, in light of a court verdict to that effect, that she lied. Specifically because that is the usual approach following a court decision, particularly when her colleagues have far less information to hand than the jury hearing the case.

Of course if you are personally involved and had different information you might take a different view - but the vast majority of people wont have any additional evidence than the jury, indeed most (if not all) will have far less information than the jury.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 04:06:54 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2019, 04:04:17 PM »
I would agree that they are the best placed to make the decision but I would not necessarily think truth had anything to do with it. So I wouldn't describe it as them deciding the "truth" but would say that they were best placed to make a decision as to what they thought has been proved in court.
OK - lets drop the word 'truth', perhaps replace with the better legal phrase 'finding of fact'. But the point remains that the jury (or judge) are best placed to determine the facts of the case and to make a decision based on 'beyond reasonable doubt' or 'balance of probabilities' depending on the type of case.

So it seems we are actually completely in agreement - effectively that the jury (or judge) are best placed to determine the facts relating to a case and make the decision.

The issue of poor policing, evidence not being brought forward etc are completely different matters.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2019, 12:51:36 PM »
OK - lets drop the word 'truth', perhaps replace with the better legal phrase 'finding of fact'. But the point remains that the jury (or judge) are best placed to determine the facts of the case and to make a decision based on 'beyond reasonable doubt' or 'balance of probabilities' depending on the type of case.

So it seems we are actually completely in agreement - effectively that the jury (or judge) are best placed to determine the facts relating to a case and make the decision.

The issue of poor policing, evidence not being brought forward etc are completely different matters.
I would say a jury or the judge is best placed to determine the facts of the case based on the fact the case only consists of the evidence they are permitted access to.

That would not be the same as saying that the judge or jury are aware of all the facts relating to an event. So my point was (in response to what you wrote in #15) that I would not automatically conclude whether someone lied or not based on the outcome of a court case.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Sassy

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2019, 10:11:45 AM »
Mmm


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/28/convicted-mp-fiona-onasanya-intends-to-stay-in-parliament?CMP=twt_gu
So all who have had a speeding ticket and lied about it should lose their jobs too so they cannot pay their fines?  CRAZY isn't it. What we do for a living should not reflect in a court sentence which costs them their job.

You pay for the crime not make them a victim of that crime by taking their lively hood away.
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jeremyp

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #113 on: January 06, 2019, 10:36:00 AM »
So all who have had a speeding ticket and lied about it should lose their jobs too so they cannot pay their fines?

I’m pretty sure that, if I did that and got a twelve month prison sentence as a result, I’d lose my job.

Quote
CRAZY isn't it. What we do for a living should not reflect in a court sentence which costs them their job.
The job in this question is participating in the process of making laws. If the people that make the laws can’t abide by them, what message does that give to the rest of us?

Quote
You pay for the crime not make them a victim of that crime by taking their lively hood away.
Perhaps she should have thought of the consequences when she tried to pervert the course of justice. You’d think she’d be an expert on that, what with being a solicitor.
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jeremyp

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2019, 02:33:07 PM »
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Roses

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2019, 03:51:34 PM »
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

jeremyp

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2019, 02:15:24 PM »
Her sentence is under review

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47071120

Apparently, somebody complained that it was too lenient and it only takes one complaint to trigger a review.
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SteveH

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2019, 05:01:16 PM »
Her sentence is under review

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47071120

Apparently, somebody complained that it was too lenient and it only takes one complaint to trigger a review.
Nasty-minded, self-righteous, sanctimonious bell-end, whoever they are. That shouldn't be possible.
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Roses

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #118 on: January 31, 2019, 05:34:54 PM »
Nasty-minded, self-righteous, sanctimonious bell-end, whoever they are. That shouldn't be possible.


Would you say the same if that woman was a member of the Tory Party?
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SteveH

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2019, 05:37:40 PM »

Would you say the same if that woman was a member of the Tory Party?
Yes. I'm content to leave sentencing to the judge, who knows more about the case than me.
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Roses

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2019, 06:14:47 PM »
Yes. I'm content to leave sentencing to the judge, who knows more about the case than me.


Fair enough.
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jeremyp

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2019, 07:22:12 PM »
Nasty-minded, self-righteous, sanctimonious bell-end, whoever they are. That shouldn't be possible.
No. It shoudn’t be so easy.

In general I agree with you. It’s unlikely that a random member of the public would know more than the court, but there needs to be some mechanism for reviewing sentences.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2019, 10:58:18 PM »
Her sentence is under review

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47071120

Apparently, somebody complained that it was too lenient and it only takes one complaint to trigger a review.
Are their initials R and L (in any order)?  ;)
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SteveH

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2019, 11:02:29 PM »
Are their initials R and L (in any order)?  ;)
Norty norty!
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Sassy

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Re: Just like Jesus
« Reply #124 on: February 09, 2019, 05:51:48 AM »
I’m pretty sure that, if I did that and got a twelve month prison sentence as a result, I’d lose my job.
The job in this question is participating in the process of making laws. If the people that make the laws can’t abide by them, what message does that give to the rest of us?
Perhaps she should have thought of the consequences when she tried to pervert the course of justice. You’d think she’d be an expert on that, what with being a solicitor.

Not really fair, Jeremyp,

The 12 month prison sentence would only come if you did what she did.
Why and how can you deny a speeding ticket. Different horses for different courses.   Who made the laws?  Well it wasn't us.  But she should not try and pervert the course of Justice. 
No one should lose their job because of a speeding ticket. Sometimes mercy needs to be shown hardly a massive crime a speeding ticket.  The MP's get away with fraud on a regular basis when they complete their expense sheet. Can they point the finger over a speeding ticket denial?
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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