Are we now agreed?

[Gordon]

Or a steam train, Gordon?

Indeed: several, in fact.

Paul's logic is explained in the quote from Matthew Henry... maybe evaluate the quote before you bin Romans 1?

In that case Paul's logic is fallacious rambling, as is Matthew Henry's 'explanation'.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Spud,

Paul's logic is explained in the quote from Matthew Henry... maybe evaluate the quote before you bin Romans 1?

If you think that Paul (or anyone else) has cogent logic for the objective existence of god then why not just tell us what it is?

[Maeght]

As Sriram says, we all digest food the same way; likewise we can all deduce that this ordered universe could not make itself.

How on earth does that follow and how is that an answer anyway?

[Enki]

Hi everyone,

Different people eat different foods to suit their environment, cultural background, tastes and preferences. No one can object to that. But that deep down, the process of digestion is the same for all humans, is a fact (with perhaps minor variations).

Similarly, even though different people follow different religious beliefs, the underlying  process of development and awakening consciousness is the same in all humans. Different paths to the same goal. This is the principle behind secular spirituality.

Maybe the entire theory of spirituality is somewhat sketchy currently. But it will, no doubt, develop further and become more and more acceptable to all people around the world, over a period of time.  Then we will have a common theory that will explain all spiritual and religious phenomena and hopefully tie it up with the physical world as well.

Bound to happen IMO.

Cheers.

Sriram

You should read 'Enlightenment Now' by Steven Pinker. (I believe it's now in paperback). He sort of agrees with your second paragraph at least, although  he puts a completely different interpretation on human progress, I think you will find.

The complete title, which gives you a bit of a clue, is ' Enlightenment Now, the Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress'.

[jeremyp]

As Sriram says, we all digest food the same way; likewise we can all deduce that this ordered universe could not make itself.

How did you deduce that this ordered universe could not make itself?

[SteveH]

As Sriram says, we all digest food the same way; likewise we can all deduce that this ordered universe could not make itself.

What? Just run that past me again, would you?

[Sriram]

You should read 'Enlightenment Now' by Steven Pinker. (I believe it's now in paperback). He sort of agrees with your second paragraph at least, although  he puts a completely different interpretation on human progress, I think you will find.

The complete title, which gives you a bit of a clue, is ' Enlightenment Now, the Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress'.

'Awakening consciousness' includes humanism, science and reason.   It is all part of our development.

[torridon]

None of it is a myth. We do actually see humans developing into civilized and more humane beings. We do see different individuals at different levels of development, emotionally and intellectually. We do have people experiencing NDE's. We do have documented accounts of reincarnated people. And much more.

What will come of the climate change issue I am not sure, but I think that spiritual development will only get accelerated. Maybe a part of humanity (and other species) will get destroyed. But that is part of the natural process. Many species have become extinct in the past but all that has only aided the development of humans and the emergence of civilization.

Everything is in control at some higher level of consciousness, IMO.

I don't see how spiritual development would continue if we are wiped out.  Progress would stop, or go backwards.  Where would the 7 billion souls currently around get reincarnated into if there are no human bodies available ?  Makes no sense to me. 

I'd agree to an extent that we are becoming more humane and civilised over time but there is no guarantee that will continue and to some extent I think it is a veneer, an illusion, a result of better education, healthcare and prosperity rather than fundamental change in human nature.  We are kinder now because we can afford to be and because we have developed greater understanding.  Both these aspects can and will go into reverse and the signs are all around us, witness countries from Brazil to Hungary voting in populist leaders with walls in mind to keep out the desperate and the needy.  Rather than learning the lessons of the twentieth century humans are reverting to replay 1930s politics and the stresses leading to this are only going to get worse by orders of magnitude.  When our self interest is threatened magnanimity is a luxury we dispose of and we revert to savagery.  Evidence also suggests levels of intelligence are diminishing globally and this may be due to the link between high atmospheric carbon and decline in cognitive function.  The hotter the world gets, the stupider we become, in short.  Our 'spiritual development', such as it is, is a short term flowering that, like all things, must pass.

[Sriram]

I don't see how spiritual development would continue if we are wiped out.  Progress would stop, or go backwards.  Where would the 7 billion souls currently around get reincarnated into if there are no human bodies available ?  Makes no sense to me. 

I'd agree to an extent that we are becoming more humane and civilised over time but there is no guarantee that will continue and to some extent I think it is a veneer, an illusion, a result of better education, healthcare and prosperity rather than fundamental change in human nature.  We are kinder now because we can afford to be and because we have developed greater understanding.  Both these aspects can and will go into reverse and the signs are all around us, witness countries from Brazil to Hungary voting in populist leaders with walls in mind to keep out the desperate and the needy.  Rather than learning the lessons of the twentieth century humans are reverting to replay 1930s politics and the stresses leading to this are only going to get worse by orders of magnitude.  When our self interest is threatened magnanimity is a luxury we dispose of and we revert to savagery.  Evidence also suggests levels of intelligence are diminishing globally and this may be due to the link between high atmospheric carbon and decline in cognitive function.  The hotter the world gets, the stupider we become, in short.  Our 'spiritual development', such as it is, is a short term flowering that, like all things, must pass.

Its impossible to tie it all up clearly and completely.   I am not claiming that we have a comprehensive understanding of all these things. The physical world is complex enough......! We can't even tie up QM and Relativity!

However, that does not mean that we can ignore or dismiss subjective aspects, the problem of Consciousness, the Unconscious mind, NDE's and so on.  The issue of Randomness leading to such complexity and development is also a major issue. It can't be taken for granted or be made into a 'randomness of the gaps'.

Its not about knowing exactly how and why all this happens. We will probably never know it all. Its about acknowledging the issues involved, the personal and subjective phenomena that we need to take seriously, the enigma of Life & Death.....and so on.   

About the problems in the world...they are all a part of development. As I said, its all probably under control at some higher level of consciousness.

[ekim]

I'd agree to an extent that we are becoming more humane and civilised over time but there is no guarantee that will continue and to some extent I think it is a veneer, an illusion, a result of better education, healthcare and prosperity rather than fundamental change in human nature.  We are kinder now because we can afford to be and because we have developed greater understanding.  Both these aspects can and will go into reverse and the signs are all around us, witness countries from Brazil to Hungary voting in populist leaders with walls in mind to keep out the desperate and the needy.  Rather than learning the lessons of the twentieth century humans are reverting to replay 1930s politics and the stresses leading to this are only going to get worse by orders of magnitude.  When our self interest is threatened magnanimity is a luxury we dispose of and we revert to savagery.  Evidence also suggests levels of intelligence are diminishing globally and this may be due to the link between high atmospheric carbon and decline in cognitive function.  The hotter the world gets, the stupider we become, in short.  Our 'spiritual development', such as it is, is a short term flowering that, like all things, must pass.

Whereas I understand what you are saying and the news we get doesn't present much optimism, but supposing the, so called, spiritual path' is intended as an individual effort rather than a mass mind process, would your comments (which I have rephrased in a personalised way) still apply and could the development be improved upon, I wonder.
"I'd agree to an extent that I are becoming more humane and civilised over time but there is no guarantee that will continue and to some extent I think it is a veneer, an illusion, a result of better education, healthcare and prosperity rather than fundamental change in human nature.  I am kinder now because I can afford to be and because I have developed greater understanding.  Both these aspects can and will go into reverse and the signs are all around me, witness countries from Brazil to Hungary voting in populist leaders with walls in mind to keep out the desperate and the needy.  Rather than learning the lessons of the twentieth century humans are reverting to replay 1930s politics and the stresses leading to this are only going to get worse by orders of magnitude.  When my self interest is threatened magnanimity is a luxury I dispose of and I revert to savagery.  Evidence also suggests levels of intelligence are diminishing globally and this may be due to the link between high atmospheric carbon and decline in cognitive function.  The hotter the world gets, the stupider I become, in short.  My 'spiritual development', such as it is, is a short term flowering that, like all things, must pass."

[SteveH]

Well, of course human nature isn't changing fundamentally - it's fixed by our genes. The fact remains that, for external reasons such as increased health, wealth, education, etc. we are getting morally better, albeit with some serious downward blips, such as the Nazis, and not everywhere at the same rate.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'll have a go. People who say there is no God do not really believe that, because when they are in trouble they pray for help, so deep down they know (better, perhaps, they believe) he exists.

Spud - how on earth can you know what I believe in times of adversity or, indeed, at any other time.

Just so you are clear - you are wrong. In times of adversity I don't pray (although I may hope for a good outcome, but that is different). And I certainly don't suddenly recognise that I actually believe in god. Quite the reverse. Through my late teens and early twenties I thought I believed in god (largely because I thought others did) and I really tried to believe in god - but when push comes to shove I recognised that regardless of how hard I tried or how challenging the situation, I just didn't. When I recognised that fact, I recognised that I was an atheist - nothing in the past 30 years has shaken that, regardless of how tough things have become. Indeed the tougher the times the more clear it become to me that I don't believe in god, not the reverse as you imply.

[Enki]

'Awakening consciousness' includes humanism, science and reason.   It is all part of our development.

Sorry, Sriram. but if you haven't read the book you have no idea at all what he is talking about.

Just to give you some idea of his thoughts on 'spirituality' here are some quotes from p433-435 of 'Enlightenment Now'.

'And since cosmic justice and metaphysical hope(as opposed to human justice and wordly hope) do not exist, then it's not meaningful to seek them; it's pointless.'

'The claim that people should seek deeper meaning in supernatural beliefs has little to recommend it'

'If (spirituality) consists in gratitude for ones's existence, awe at the beauty and immensity of the universe and humility before the frontiers of human understanding, then spirituality is indeed an experience which makes life worth living....But 'spirituality' is often taken to mean something more: the conviction that the universe is somehow personal, that everything happens for a reason, that meaning is to be found in the happenstances of life.'

'A 'spirituality' that sees cosmic meaning in the whims of fortune is not wise, but foolish. The first step towards wisdom is the realization that the laws of the universe don't care about you. The next is the realization that  this does not imply that life is meaningless because people care about you, and vice versa. '

He reports a video sketch by a comedienne Amy Schumer, where she takes on the persona of a woman who says:
'So, I was texting while I was driving? And I ended up taking a wrong turn that took me directly past a vitamin shop? And I was just like, this is totally the universe telling me I should be taking calcium.'

You see, his thoughts seem to run directly contrary to yours in so many ways. This doesn't mean he is right, of course just as there is no reason to think that you are right with your idea of some sort of universal consciousness. I happen to think that he is actually far too optimistic, but at least  he is prepared to put forward his point of view and back it up with both argument and statistics.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sorry, Sriram. but if you haven't read the book you have no idea at all what he is talking about.

Just to give you some idea of his thoughts on 'spirituality' here are some quotes from p433-435 of 'Enlightenment Now'.

'And since cosmic justice and metaphysical hope(as opposed to human justice and wordly hope) do not exist, then it's not meaningful to seek them; it's pointless.'

'The claim that people should seek deeper meaning in supernatural beliefs has little to recommend it'

'If (spirituality) consists in gratitude for ones's existence, awe at the beauty and immensity of the universe and humility before the frontiers of human understanding, then spirituality is indeed an experience which makes life worth living....But 'spirituality' is often taken to mean something more: the conviction that the universe is somehow personal, that everything happens for a reason, that meaning is to be found in the happenstances of life.'

'A 'spirituality' that sees cosmic meaning in the whims of fortune is not wise, but foolish. The first step towards wisdom is the realization that the laws of the universe don't care about you. The next is the realization that  this does not imply that life is meaningless because people care about you, and vice versa. '

He reports a video sketch by a comedienne Amy Schumer, where she takes on the persona of a woman who says:
'So, I was texting while I was driving? And I ended up taking a wrong turn that took me directly past a vitamin shop? And I was just like, this is totally the universe telling me I should be taking calcium.'

You see, his thoughts seem to run directly contrary to yours in so many ways. This doesn't mean he is right, of course just as there is no reason to think that you are right with your idea of some sort of universal consciousness. I happen to think that he is actually far too optimistic, but at least  he is prepared to put forward his point of view and back it up with both argument and statistics.

Although I largely share John Grays opinion of Pinker's work and philosophy, the man does have great hair. Where does he get it done? Is it permed or natural? Could one go to a coiffure and ask for a "Stephen Pinker"

[Enki]

Although I largely share John Grays opinion of Pinker's work and philosophy, the man does have great hair. Where does he get it done? Is it permed or natural? Could one go to a coiffure and ask for a "Stephen Pinker"

I wish! Mind you I do like John Travolta's new bald look. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I wish! Mind you I do like John Travolta's new bald look. 

Yes it's good but prefer the Pinker look.

[Sriram]

Sorry, Sriram. but if you haven't read the book you have no idea at all what he is talking about.

Just to give you some idea of his thoughts on 'spirituality' here are some quotes from p433-435 of 'Enlightenment Now'.

'And since cosmic justice and metaphysical hope(as opposed to human justice and wordly hope) do not exist, then it's not meaningful to seek them; it's pointless.'

'The claim that people should seek deeper meaning in supernatural beliefs has little to recommend it'

'If (spirituality) consists in gratitude for ones's existence, awe at the beauty and immensity of the universe and humility before the frontiers of human understanding, then spirituality is indeed an experience which makes life worth living....But 'spirituality' is often taken to mean something more: the conviction that the universe is somehow personal, that everything happens for a reason, that meaning is to be found in the happenstances of life.'

'A 'spirituality' that sees cosmic meaning in the whims of fortune is not wise, but foolish. The first step towards wisdom is the realization that the laws of the universe don't care about you. The next is the realization that  this does not imply that life is meaningless because people care about you, and vice versa. '

He reports a video sketch by a comedienne Amy Schumer, where she takes on the persona of a woman who says:
'So, I was texting while I was driving? And I ended up taking a wrong turn that took me directly past a vitamin shop? And I was just like, this is totally the universe telling me I should be taking calcium.'

You see, his thoughts seem to run directly contrary to yours in so many ways. This doesn't mean he is right, of course just as there is no reason to think that you are right with your idea of some sort of universal consciousness. I happen to think that he is actually far too optimistic, but at least  he is prepared to put forward his point of view and back it up with both argument and statistics.

Hi enki,

There must be several million people whose thoughts are contrary to mine.  Why should that mean anything to me?! So, big deal!!  That's never worried me. There could also be several million people whose thought might coincide with mine. Does that mean I am right?!

Secondly,  my understanding of spirituality is not based on such things as 'gratitude for ones existence' or 'cosmic meaning in whims and fancies' or 'finding a drug store on your way home'.   That shows how little people know of spirituality.

So, lets leave it at that.

Cheers.

Sriram

[torridon]

'Awakening consciousness' includes humanism, science and reason.   It is all part of our development.

Humanism, science and reason are in retreat though, globally.  Your narrative of spiritual development ignores the facts.  Having virtually eliminated measles, new cases are now rising even in highly educated Europe as people increasingly ignore the science in favour of internet fuelled conspiracy theories.  Even in highly educated America, millions of people voted for a science denier and conspiracy theorist who would have been regarded as a fringe wacko only a decade ago.  Now such people are mainstream.  This is the new norm.  The trends of enlightened generous thinking that led to a stable world order after the world wars of the last century might still be there but they are losing ground as people increasingly revert to type looking to narrow self interest in the face of rising societal stresses.  The arc of a rising humanitarian ethos over time is not so much an indicator of spiritual development of humanity, it is more an indicator of our economic well being. When times are easy, we can afford noble, generous aspirations and congratulate ourselves on our rising humanity.  As soon as times get hard though, we very quickly abandon high minded principals in favour of base self interest.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Humanism, science and reason are in retreat though, globally.  Your narrative of spiritual development ignores the facts.  Having virtually eliminated measles, new cases are now rising even in highly educated Europe as people increasingly ignore the science in favour of internet fuelled conspiracy theories.  Even in highly educated America, millions of people voted for a science denier and conspiracy theorist who would have been regarded as a fringe wacko only a decade ago.  Now such people are mainstream.  This is the new norm.  The trends of enlightened generous thinking that led to a stable world order after the world wars of the last century might still be there but they are losing ground as people increasingly revert to type looking to narrow self interest in the face of rising societal stresses.  The arc of a rising humanitarian ethos over time is not so much an indicator of spiritual development of humanity, it is more an indicator of our economic well being. When times are easy, we can afford noble, generous aspirations and congratulate ourselves on our rising humanity.  As soon as times get hard though, we very quickly abandon high minded principals in favour of base self interest.

The straightened economic times are the result of self serving behaviour not the other way round. Although I accept that can perpetuate self service.
Your post seems to be a commentary on the failure of humanism.

[Aruntraveller]

The straightened economic times are the result of self serving behaviour not the other way round. Although I accept that can perpetuate self service.
Your post seems to be a commentary on the failure of humanism.

Surely just a comment on the failure of humans?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Surely just a comment on the failure of humans?

If the central plank of humanism is human behaviour though?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Surely just a comment on the failure of humans?

Torridon s is very bleak conclusion for while apparently you can be good without God you can't be without money.

[Enki]

If the central plank of humanism is human behaviour though?

I didn't think that humanism was based upon the idea of supporting human behaviour, carte blanche, though, more the idea that prime importance is given to human rather than supernatural matters, using logic, reason and evidence.

[Enki]

Hi enki,

There must be several million people whose thoughts are contrary to mine.  Why should that mean anything to me?! So, big deal!!  That's never worried me. There could also be several million people whose thought might coincide with mine. Does that mean I am right?!

Secondly,  my understanding of spirituality is not based on such things as 'gratitude for ones existence' or 'cosmic meaning in whims and fancies' or 'finding a drug store on your way home'.   That shows how little people know of spirituality.

So, lets leave it at that.

Cheers.

Sriram

Fair enough, Sriram, it's just that I thought that the idea of a person opening up to consider and evaluate different ideas was something that you were in favour of. You have quite often accused others of being blinkered and not willing to even consider your ideas.
I am myself at the moment halfway through a book entitled 'How the World Thinks' by Julian Baggini, which is, in fact, a perusal of global philosophies, especially  those of Japan,  India, China, the Muslim World as well as the 'philosophy' of the West. I am reading it to better acquaint myself with different ideas and attitudes, and so that any which intigue me can be followed up by further involvement.

However, if your attitude is that what other people think shouldn't mean anything to you (I assume, that is, if their ideas do not coalesce with your own) then, so be it. You are welcome to your complacency. For my part I will strive to remain as open as possible and to try to understand the thinking that leads to as wide a range of ideas as possible. Only by being better informed can I hope to make sensible judgments on my own behalf.

As you say, let's leave it at that. 

[Sriram]

Humanism, science and reason are in retreat though, globally.  Your narrative of spiritual development ignores the facts.  Having virtually eliminated measles, new cases are now rising even in highly educated Europe as people increasingly ignore the science in favour of internet fuelled conspiracy theories.  Even in highly educated America, millions of people voted for a science denier and conspiracy theorist who would have been regarded as a fringe wacko only a decade ago.  Now such people are mainstream.  This is the new norm.  The trends of enlightened generous thinking that led to a stable world order after the world wars of the last century might still be there but they are losing ground as people increasingly revert to type looking to narrow self interest in the face of rising societal stresses.  The arc of a rising humanitarian ethos over time is not so much an indicator of spiritual development of humanity, it is more an indicator of our economic well being. When times are easy, we can afford noble, generous aspirations and congratulate ourselves on our rising humanity.  As soon as times get hard though, we very quickly abandon high minded principals in favour of base self interest.

Global warming may be true, but nevertheless, some places will get excessively cold also.  Such opposites are part of the pendulum swing.  Cyclical variations....  which provides the necessary balance.