Are we now agreed?

[SteveH]

I agree with you, but not if you lived in the US where you can talk about apple cider because cider there simply means any unfermented crushed fruit such as apple, pear, even blackcurrant cider.

'Fraid not - it's apples only. In the US, "sweet cider" means unfermented apple juice, and "hard cider" fermented, alcoholic apple juice, but it's definitely only apples.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider

[Roses]

No doubt Jesus would approve of the discussion of alcoholic drinks on a Christian board, he seemed to rate alcohol highly, ensuring it didn't run out at a wedding, for instance!

[jeremyp]

No, of course not. Oxford Dictionaries, inter many alia. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/perry

What does that prove? It doesn't mean you can't also have pear cider.

[jeremyp]

No doubt Jesus would approve of the discussion of alcoholic drinks on a Christian board, he seemed to rate alcohol highly, ensuring it didn't run out at a wedding, for instance!

That was wine: fermented grape juice.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/wine

[Spud]

Spud,

Or by the laws of physics working consistently.

Your terminology is wrong and that’s not what physics currently tells us is the only option (quantum borrowing etc).   
 
No, he was wholly wrong. Bees make honey but that’s not the “reason” for their existence at all; rather bears evolved to eat honey.

Really try to grasp the point here: the state of the universe looks miraculous to us because the bit of it we occupy seems to fit us so well, just as a puddle might marvel at the chances of the hole it occupies fitting it just so. That’s very bad thinking though for the reason that should be obvious: circular argument.

But you are making quite a big assumption which is that the laws of physics alone caused the universe to be how it currently is. You assume that bears evolved from non-bears, and that the sun formed by natural processes from a bunch of gas and dust. We currently don't observe such changes actually happening though.

[wigginhall]

No, of course not. Oxford Dictionaries, inter many alia. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/perry

Well, dictionaries record usage, and language is always changing, especially vocabulary.   Still, if you want to be prescriptive, go ahead.

[SteveH]

Well, dictionaries record usage, and language is always changing, especially vocabulary.   Still, if you want to be prescriptive, go ahead.

Some changes should be resisted, and "pear cider" is one, because the word "perry" already exists to cover it. (While were on the subject, "honey ale" should really be called "bragget", but I think that battle was lost long ago.)

[wigginhall]

Some changes should be resisted, and "pear cider" is one, because the word "perry" already exists to cover it. (While were on the subject, "honey ale" should really be called "bragget", but I think that battle was lost long ago.)

Yes, I get the idea of no change, but language tends to outwit us.   I heard "bare" being used to mean a lot, or very, and I chuckled in admiration, as reverse slang has always interested me, see French verlan, where flic is keuf, femme is meuf and so on.   And meuf is now in the dictionaries.

[jeremyp]

Some changes should be resisted, and "pear cider" is one, because the word "perry" already exists to cover it. (While were on the subject, "honey ale" should really be called "bragget", but I think that battle was lost long ago.)

Why are we not allowed more than one word to refer to the same thing?

[SteveH]

Why are we not allowed more than one word to refer to the same thing?

Because in this case it's due to ignorance.

[jeremyp]

Because in this case it's due to ignorance.

My respect for you has gone up enormously. Most people find it difficult to make such an admission.

[SteveH]

Har bloody har.

[Roses]

My respect for you has gone up enormously. Most people find it difficult to make such an admission.

Good for you for giving credit where credit is due.

[Enki]

'Fraid not - it's apples only. In the US, "sweet cider" means unfermented apple juice, and "hard cider" fermented, alcoholic apple juice, but it's definitely only apples.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider

'Fraid Not.

Federal labeling rules supply one answer, which isn’t very satisfying to cider makers. Only fermented apples and pears may be labeled cider, according to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau. If a bottle does not contain apple or pear cider, and is more than 7 percent alcohol, it must instead be labeled “fruit wine.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/dining/cider-fruit-pear.html

1.1North American An unfermented drink made by crushing fruit, typically apples.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cider

[wigginhall]

I remember one of my students working on extensions of meaning, as with phrases like "toy library", and so on.  Dictionaries record such changes, but don't instigate them, so quoting them misses the point.  A non-apple cider is quite feasible, although the purists will object.

[SteveH]

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cider

Well, in British English, it is properly only the word for fermented apples, as that limk indicates.

[wigginhall]

Properly again!

[Enki]

Well, in British English, it is properly only the word for fermented apples, as that limk indicates.

Which I agreed with in Post 149, but not if you lived in the U.S.  It seems we have come full circle.

[jeremyp]

Well, in British English, it is properly only the word for fermented apples, as that limk indicates.

But as my link to Tesco shows, that ship has sailed. Sorry, but you've lost this one.

[wigginhall]

Usage triumphs over prescription, as it often does.  Look at phrases like "apple butter", "plum butter", language is creative!

[Sebastian Toe]

"Milk"!
How many different kinds of milk are there?

[wigginhall]

Good one, rice milk, etc.  Almond milk. But it's not proper English!

[SteveH]

"Milk"!
How many different kinds of milk are there?

Cow, sheep, goat, mother's, Harvey.

[Robbie]

Coconut.

[SteveH]

Condensed.