First successful UK conviction for Female Genital Mutilation

[Nearly Sane]

And a very interesting perspective on it.


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1091360126638964741.html

[Harrowby Hall]

Patriarchy - so institutionalised that it becomes the cultural norm and women see it as their duty to uphold it.

Masculine envy of female sexuality? Could be. I have never envied women their sexual rewards - if indeed they differ from those of men - if only because of the price women pay for their sexuality.

But then, male genital mutilation (of which I was a victim) appeared to be a female conspiracy. Most births (when I was young) took place at home and the midwife offered the "service" during the first few days of a baby boy's life. My observations in changing rooms at school and at swimming pools was that rather more boys were circuncised than were not.

I don't watch Call the Midwife but I bet there is no sign of it there!

[Roses]

I watch, 'Call the Midwife', and there has never been talk of male circumcision on that programme. ALL genital mutilation in both female and male is wrong if it is done for cultural or religious reasons . Boys should only be circumcised if they have a condition, which makes it medically necessary.

[jeremyp]

But then, male genital mutilation (of which I was a victim) appeared to be a female conspiracy. Most births (when I was young) took place at home and the midwife offered the "service" during the first few days of a baby boy's life. My observations in changing rooms at school and at swimming pools was that rather more boys were circuncised than were not.

I don't watch Call the Midwife but I bet there is no sign of it there!

Without disagreeing with you, I have noticed how threads about FGM - not just on this forum - almost always morph into threads about male circumcision. Can I suggest that, for once, we try to avoid that?

[Harrowby Hall]

OK, why don't you post something about the conviction then?  That way you could steer discussion back to FGM.

What is there, in the make-up of homo sapiens, that encourages the species to deliberately damage the genitalia of its young offspring in so many different cultures?

[SteveH]

Patriarchy - so institutionalised that it becomes the cultural norm and women see it as their duty to uphold it.

Masculine envy of female sexuality? Could be. I have never envied women their sexual rewards - if indeed they differ from those of men - if only because of the price women pay for their sexuality.

But then, male genital mutilation (of which I was a victim) appeared to be a female conspiracy. Most births (when I was young) took place at home and the midwife offered the "service" during the first few days of a baby boy's life. My observations in changing rooms at school and at swimming pools was that rather more boys were circuncised than were not.

I don't watch Call the Midwife but I bet there is no sign of it there!

There was an episode that dealt specifically and in wince-inducing detail with FGM. I don't recall one dealing with circumcision, but 'Call the Midwife' doesn't shy away from uncomfortable issues, such as kids in care being shipped out to Australia, supposedly for a new life of opportunity, only to be exploited and abused - they've covered that twice. Also the limited opportunities for the disabled in the early 60s.

[Owlswing]

There was an episode that dealt specifically and in wince-inducing detail with FGM. I don't recall one dealing with circumcision, but 'Call the Midwife' doesn't shy away from uncomfortable issues, such as kids in care being shipped out to Australia, supposedly for a new life of opportunity, only to be exploited and abused - they've covered that twice. Also the limited opportunities for the disabled in the early 60s.

Regretably we are in sore need of an update to the 2,000's - the 1960's are, in these terms, ancient history.

As to the reason for the mutilation of the human gentalia it is, in both cases, I think, on tne basis of both the Jewish (masle) and Islamic (female) religious teachings!

Barbaric - too bloody right it is! Are we going to stop it in the next fifty years? I doubt it unless both religions are called to account to force it to be stopped.
 
In America the reason for MGM is almost always given as 'hygiene'

[SusanDoris]

There is a great need for more writers like that of the article, with close family experience of this dreadful mutilation, to get something done to force a change of attitude and eventually stop it.

[Roses]

Without disagreeing with you, I have noticed how threads about FGM - not just on this forum - almost always morph into threads about male circumcision. Can I suggest that, for once, we try to avoid that?

Why? Male circumcision can be a problem if it is performed by an incompetent. My husband's was messed up when he was a baby, and must have caused him a great deal of pain. 

[Nearly Sane]

Why? Male circumcision can be a problem if it is performed by an incompetent. My husband's was messed up when he was a baby, and must have caused him a great deal of pain.

Because it's not the same topic.

[Roses]

Because it's not the same topic.

But it comes under the heading of genital mutliation, imo, although of course FGM usually has a more devestating outcome.

[Nearly Sane]

But it comes under the heading of genital mutliation, imo, although of course FGM usually has a more devestating outcome.

And it's not the same topic. Changing subjects to talk about men as opposed to women happens too frequently. The issues are different.

[Roses]

And it's not the same topic. Changing subjects to talk about men as opposed to women happens too frequently. The issues are different.

I don't think they are different, mutilation of the genitals is very wrong for both sexes.

[Harrowby Hall]

As the person responsible for the deviation from the true path, I was not trying to re-instate MGM but looking to see if there was any cultural reason other than religion to account for both MGM and FGM.

As to the reason for the mutilation of the human gentalia it is, in both cases, I think, on tne basis of both the jewish and islamic relious teachings!

Then how do you account for its presence in places where the Abrahamic religions had held no sway?

[SusanDoris]

Then how do you account for its presence in places where the Abrahamic religions had held no sway?

some mindless idiot a long time ago got hold of some idiotic, stupid idea and proceded to enforce it; and enough unthinking people, possibly in fear of their lives, went along with said idiotic idea, resulting in millions of women being tortured totally unnecessarily.

[SteveH]

Circumcision is orders of magnitude less important than FGM. It has no impact on the man's later life, whereas FGM has a huge impact. Let's keep a sense of proportion here. The brouhaha about it is just an attempt to have a pop at religion by atheists. Perhaos, therefore, we could stick to the thread subject, which is female genital mutilation, which is quite rightly a scandal.

[Roses]

Circumcision is orders of magnitude less important than FGM. It has no impact on the man's later life, whereas FGM has a huge impact. Let's keep a sense of proportion here. The brouhaha about it is just an attempt to have a pop at religion by atheists. Perhaos, therefore, we could stick to the thread subject, which is female genital mutilation, which is quite rightly a scandal.

Religions which require the female or male of the species to be mutilated should be castigated.

[SteveH]

Religions which require the female or male of the species to be mutilated should be castigated.

Oo-er missus!

[jeremyp]

Religions which require the female or male of the species to be mutilated should be castigated.

There you go again, making it all about men...

... oh castigated. Sorry, I misread that.

Anyway, the thing I find quite incredible is that FGM has been illegal in the UK for 30 years and yet this is the first successful prosecution. 

[Robbie]

Patriarchy - so institutionalised that it becomes the cultural norm and women see it as their duty to uphold it.

Masculine envy of female sexuality? Could be. I have never envied women their sexual rewards - if indeed they differ from those of men - if only because of the price women pay for their sexuality.

But then, male genital mutilation (of which I was a victim) appeared to be a female conspiracy. Most births (when I was young) took place at home and the midwife offered the "service" during the first few days of a baby boy's life. My observations in changing rooms at school and at swimming pools was that rather more boys were circuncised than were not.

I don't watch Call the Midwife but I bet there is no sign of it there!

I know someone very well who was a District Midwife during the period that 'Call the Midwife' was made, working in a very poor area (not Poplar). I remember you said once before that midwives offered circumcision and I asked her about it. She was horrified at the thought, said that it wasn't part of her training and she had never performed circumcision, neither had her colleagues. So you were unlucky HH. It was often performed in hospital, by doctors, my husband was circumcised but he was born in a maternity home, with no problems.

Apparently it is fairly routine in America. I wonder why.

However, going back to FGM, it's really horrific to think of mothers and grandmothers mutilating their little girls.

Steveh, I saw that episode of CtheM (I've seen every episode at least once), that you mentioned in which the pregnant woman had had the procedure, the midwives and the doctor hadn't seen anything like it before. They did some research and found out what it was about, thankfully. The woman had a C section. It was a very traumatic episode.

[Owlswing]

Circumcision is orders of magnitude less important than FGM. It has no impact on the man's later life, whereas FGM has a huge impact. Let's keep a sense of proportion here. The brouhaha about it is just an attempt to have a pop at religion by atheists. Perhaos, therefore, we could stick to the thread subject, which is female genital mutilation, which is quite rightly a scandal.

Are you saying that FGM has no foundation in religion?

[Roses]

There you go again, making it all about men...

... oh castigated. Sorry, I misread that.

Anyway, the thing I find quite incredible is that FGM has been illegal in the UK for 30 years and yet this is the first successful prosecution.

Where on earth did I make it all about men?

It shameful that it has taken all this time for the first prosecution to take place.

[SteveH]

Are you saying that FGM has no foundation in religion?

I was, rather obviously, I'd've thought, talking about male circumcision, which, if done competently, has no bad effect on the child. FGM is horrific, and it is trivialising it to compare circumcision to it, as though they were equal. As for religion, a quick google would reveal to you, as it did to me, that there is only one small, extreme branch of Islam that insists on FGM. For all mainstream varieties of Islam, it is, like the wearing of the burqa,  a cultural practice, not a religious requirement. FGM is quite rightly illegal in the UK, and should be everywhere, but cicumcision, whether medically required or not, should be allowed within proper regulation about who does it and how.

[SteveH]

Where on earth did I make it all about men?

Oh, ffs. "Castigated". Sounds like... . Jeremy was joking! It really is time you had a sense-of-humour implant.

[Robbie]

At first glance, looks like 'castrated', LR.
Quite something when something has to be explained  .