First successful UK conviction for Female Genital Mutilation

[Roses]

At first glance, looks like 'castrated', LR.
Quite something when something has to be explained  .

Castigated doesn't look in the least bit like castrated to me!

[Robbie]

Oh, ffs. "Castigated". Sounds like... . Jeremy was joking! It really is time you had a sense-of-humour implant.

Oo-er m

Oh, ffs. "Castigated". Sounds like... . Jeremy was joking! It really is time you had a sense-of-humour implant.

[jeremyp]

Where on earth did I make it all about men?

It was a joke. I pretended to read "castigated" as "castrated".

That's dissected the frog nicely.

[Roses]

It was a joke. I pretended to read "castigated" as "castrated".

That's dissected the frog nicely.

Ehhhhhhhhhh?

[jeremyp]

I was, rather obviously, I'd've thought, talking about male circumcision, which, if done competently, has no bad effect on the child. FGM is horrific, and it is trivialising it to compare circumcision to it, as though they were equal.

Whilst I don't think the issue of male circumcision is trivial even when compared to FGM, I completely agree that FGM is a whole different order of magnitude. In terms of what it does, FGM is more akin to cutting the whole end of the penis off. This is reflected in English law in that FGM is illegal but male circumcision is not.

I still don't understand why it's taken 30 years to get the first conviction though. This can't be the first case of FGM in the whole of the UK in the last 30 years.

[jeremyp]

Ehhhhhhhhhh?

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/440683-explaining-a-joke-is-like-dissecting-a-frog-you-understand

[Harrowby Hall]

I still don't understand why it's taken 30 years to get the first conviction though. This can't be the first case of FGM in the whole of the UK in the last 30 years.

There was a prosecution - about 8 years ago, I think. A gynaecologist, attending a birth, was faced with a woman whose vulva was very badly damaged by FGM - including infibulation. Following the delivery - which itself was very traumatic - he tried to repair the damage that giving birth had done. For some reason, this was considered to be re-installing the infibulation and he was prosecuted for his efforts.

The prosecution case fell apart when other clinicians supported what he did as surgical good practice (or something similar). I wondered whether the fact that the doctor concerned had a brown skin was an important element in the prosecution.

[Robbie]

Poor bloke was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. It's a really horrible business. I wonder how many of you have read, "Possessing the Secret of Joy",by Alice Walker.

Some young adult woman choose to have fgm too, in this country, you wouldn't expect it to happen here especially as it's illegal. However it did happen here in Victorian times and in America until mid 20th century, for various reasons such as hysteria, mental illness. Shameful.

[Roses]

I think medical checks on children throughout their childhood should be compulsory, and these should include checks to see they are not being abused sexually or physically. FGM would be one of the abuses that would be checked up on.   

[Aruntraveller]

I think medical checks on children throughout their childhood should be compulsory, and these should include checks to see they are not being abused sexually or physically. FGM would be one of the abuses that would be checked up on.

Whoa there. Sledge hammer/walnut country.

How much do you think these compulsory checks would cost?

How often would these checks take place?

How is it going to be funded?

Would education in these areas address the issue in a more cost effective manner?

As a wish list it is maybe ok, although I think there are all sorts of issues ravelled up in there in terms of parental responsibility and impact on health care workers. But practically I don't think you have thought it through at all.

[Harrowby Hall]

Do children still have health checks at school? My children certainly did - there was a "school doctor" who examined them when they were about six.

[Aruntraveller]

Do children still have health checks at school? My children certainly did - there was a "school doctor" who examined them when they were about six.

I'm unsure whether they still do. What I am fairly sure of is that they would not have had an investigation of the type that would be needed to establish any occurrence of FGM. This would be an intrusion that would have to be handled extremely sensitively and the possibility of claims for some kind of inappropriate behaviour arising from these examinations just makes this sound a bonkers, unworkable idea to me.

[Roses]

Do children still have health checks at school? My children certainly did - there was a "school doctor" who examined them when they were about six.

I don't think school health checks look for signs of sexual abuse. Besides which, children who are home schooled aren't included in health checks.

[SteveH]

I think medical checks on children throughout their childhood should be compulsory, and these should include checks to see they are not being abused sexually or physically. FGM would be one of the abuses that would be checked up on.

You're a bit of a crypto-fascist on the quiet, aren't you? Civil liberties certainly don't seem to figure highly in your priorities.

[Owlswing]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/09/metal-spoon-alert-authorities-honour-based-abuse-leeds

I thought I remembered something about this, the original advice was to raise an alert for girls about to be taen abroad for forced marriage, but was later updated to include girls who were afraid that they were being taken to be 'cut' as well.
I can't remember seeing anything about it ever being used though.

[Owlswing]

You're a bit of a crypto-fascist on the quiet, aren't you? Civil liberties certainly don't seem to figure highly in your priorities.

And you and others who over-emphsise them, civil liberties, have resulted in Judges and magistrates who areb scared to sling well documented little thugs into jail!

Them being kept out of a crowded jail is more important than keeping thier victims out of hospital.

[Roses]

You're a bit of a crypto-fascist on the quiet, aren't you? Civil liberties certainly don't seem to figure highly in your priorities.

What a STUPID thing to say, even for you. It is children's civil liberties which concern me, like not suffering from abuse!

[SteveH]

And you and others who over-emphsise them, civil liberties, have resulted in Judges and magistrates who areb scared to sling well documented little thugs into jail!

Them being kept out of a crowded jail is more important than keeping thier victims out of hospital.

I made it clear in a recent post on another thread that I think it should be easier to imprison toerags, scrotes, ne'er-do-wells and 'scape-graces, and deplored the recent move by this disastrous government to scrap sentences of less than 6 months, on the grounds that already when anyone issentenced to a short jail term, other sanctions such as probation, tasgging and community service have already been tried and have failed.

[SteveH]

What a STUPID thing to say, even for you. It is children's civil liberties which concern me, like not suffering from abuse!

The compulsory examination you propose could itself be classed as abuse. Small kids have a well-developed sense of modesty before strangers, however kind and well-meaning, and it could be quite traumatic for them.

[Aruntraveller]

Just so we know what is being referred to when someone says "civil lliberties" here is a definition (or two):

1. the   freedom  of a  citizen  to  exercise   customary   rights,  as of  speech  or  assembly,   without   unwarranted  or  arbitrary   interference  by  the   government.

2 such  a  right  as  guaranteed  by  the   laws  of a  country,  as in  the  U.S. by  the   Bill  of  Rights.

I am not sure why anyone would object to those principles.

[Roses]

The compulsory examination you propose could itself be classed as abuse. Small kids have a well-developed sense of modesty before strangers, however kind and well-meaning, and it could be quite traumatic for them.

I can't say I have noticed that young children have a sense of modesty before strangers. So are you saying it is far better to protect their private parts from a medical inspection, even if sexual abuse goes undiscovered?

[jeremyp]

I think medical checks on children throughout their childhood should be compulsory, and these should include checks to see they are not being abused sexually or physically. FGM would be one of the abuses that would be checked up on.

Imagine what you need to do in order to check if a six year old girl has been subject to FGM. That will probably tell you why it is not being done routinely.

[Robbie]

I would have objected very strongly to my children having their genitals examined, never even heard of it. If there are suspicious circumstances, that's different.

[Roses]

Imagine what you need to do in order to check if a six year old girl has been subject to FGM. That will probably tell you why it is not being done routinely.

It is done routinely in France, I believe.

[Robbie]

Really? Hopefully the doctors just have a look but don't touch. We can all see that little girls are intact when we change nappies and bathe, they're 'closed up'. If they'd been fiddled with, that would be obvious.

If anything had happened to my daughters, they'd have told me and then I'd have dealt with it, with help of kind and sensitive doctors. I was fortunate to have medics in the family whom we all loved. However I suppose a really tiny child, e.g. under three, wouldn't quite know how to express what happened.

Gosh, it all seems too awful to contemplate. Whenever I read or hear about sexual abuse of children (either sex), I freak & cry my eyes out. It's beyond me how or why anyone could do such a thing.

FGM is sexual abuse as far as I'm concerned, whether it happens in infancy or adulthood.