Six Nations 2019

[jeremyp]

Evidence please that there is 'a high probability that your really good players will get injured'.

From what I know until Saturday both Hogg and Sexton had been 'ever present' in their respective teams for years and certainly not regularly forced off through injury. If substituted, usually late game tactical change.

They were just recent examples. The nature of the game of rugby means injuries are inevitable. You need strength in depth.

[ProfessorDavey]

You haven’t got a clue about sporting rivalries have you.

On the contrary - I completely get sporting rivalries. Don't forget I'm far more a football fan than a rugby fan, and that's where the really serious rivalries exist - in club football.

And if your result in your big rivalry is the high point of your season, that is a sure sign that your season hasn't amounted to much. So try it this way. Do you think that Liverpool fans would trade winning the premier league (for the first time since 1990, when it was the old first division) for doing the 'double' over Everton. Of course not - they wouldn't give a damn about losing twice to Everton (not that they can of course as they've already beaten them once) if they win the league. Turn it on its head - Everton are stuck mid table, out of both cups - so sure they might see a derby victory as a highlight, but that would simply be because their season has been rubbish.

Sure I get that England/Wales is a big rivalry, but here's a question for you as (I think) an England rugby fan. Tell me about the 2003 season for England - no doubt you'll have etched in your mind Johnny Wilkinson's extra time drop goal in the world cup final that beat Australia. Somehow I doubt that the first thing that springs to mind in your memory of the 2003 year are any of the 3 times that England beat Wales in that year.

[ProfessorDavey]

They were just recent examples. The nature of the game of rugby means injuries are inevitable.

Come on then let's have other examples. The implication of your earlier comment was that in rugby the best players were regularly coming off the pitch injured in games (I presume you mean permanently not just for a couple of mixtures, blood injury).

I can't see any more evidence for this in rugby than in football and I'm struggling to think of a 'top player' for any of the current rugby squads who had regularly ended up off the pitch injured due in the early stages of a game. As I pointed out Hogg and Sexton have been pretty well ever presents (except when dropped) and often played the full 80 minutes, perhaps only being pulled off tactically in the last few minutes. Same for Farrell for England.

You need strength in depth.

True, but that is a different matter - in most cases replacements are made not through injury but to bring on fresh legs or tactically.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yep. Totally clueless.

You really think that Wales fans would prioritise a victory over England in two weeks time over a (hypothetical) world cup semi final victory over South Africa to reach their first even world cup final. Bonkers.

[jeremyp]

Come on then let's have other examples. The implication of your earlier comment was that in rugby the best players were regularly coming off the pitch injured in games (I presume you mean permanently not just for a couple of mixtures, blood injury).

Make Vunipola is out for the rest of the Six Nations. Johnny Wilkinson’s career was effectively ended by injury. Lee Halfpenny is only just coming back after an injury. Billy Vunipola was also out for a long time because of several injuries. Scotland’s injury list is about a mile long. Rugby is a brutal game. People get injured.

[jeremyp]

You really think that Wales fans would prioritise a victory over England in two weeks time over a (hypothetical) world cup semi final victory over South Africa to reach their first even world cup final. Bonkers.

That’s not the point. They want to beat England more than any other team. If they beat England in two weeks, that will be remembered far longer than the semi final result of the RWC unless it is against England.

[ProfessorDavey]

That’s not the point. They want to beat England more than any other team. If they beat England in two weeks, that will be remembered far longer than the semi final result of the RWC unless it is against England.

Absolute rubbish - I spent a very significant amount of time with hard core Wales rugby fans and without a shadow of doubt the match in recent years most etched on their memory is the one they played on 15th Oct 2011 ... against France ... in New Zealand ... in the semi final of the world cup.

If I had £1 for every mention of Sam Warburton's dismissal I'd be a very rich man. If I had £1 for every mention of Wales' 6 nations victories over England in 2009, 2012 (both grand slams no less) and 2013 put together I'd be, well, penniless.

The only recent Wales/England match that comes close to the France semi final in recent years is the 2015 world cup group stage with significant bragging rights for effectively putting England out of their own world cup.

Suggest you might want to spend a little more time in the company of hard core Wales rugby fans.

[Maeght]

Although a rugby fan I 'care' less about the Six Nations now than I used to. I think this is partly because having seen so many internationals the novelty and importance of each is reduced - lose this year, don't worry we'll do it all again next year and the year after and the year after. The introduction of the World Cup has also been a factor since this is now the pinnacle. it happening only once every 4 years means each one is more important.

[ProfessorDavey]

Although a rugby fan I 'care' less about the Six Nations now than I used to. I think this is partly because having seen so many internationals the novelty and importance of each is reduced - lose this year, don't worry we'll do it all again next year and the year after and the year after. The introduction of the World Cup has also been a factor since this is now the pinnacle. it happening only once every 4 years means each one is more important.

Absolutely - the issue with the 6 nations is that they all blur into one - same teams year after year after year. Without checking back on Wikipedia I'd really struggle to remember the details of even pretty recent tournament (e.g. 2010-2017) - it is all much of a much-ness and pretty well wiped clean once the tournament finishes as there is another one on its way in just 11 months.

The world cup is different - only once in 4 years, much higher quality as it includes the best teams in the world and with the excitement of playing teams in a proper competitive match that you never play competitively in any other competition. It is a far superior competition is every single way (quality, global reach, excitement, popularity, rarity value, prestige, atmosphere) except one (tradition) - but if you base the best sports tournament on 'tradition', then you aren't really a sports fan.

So Jeremy's notion that Wales fans would prefer to win against England next weekend over a world cup semi final win is frankly bonkers - he is just wrong.

[jeremyp]

Absolute rubbish

Nope.

You just don't understand sporting rivalries.

[Maeght]

Nope.

You just don't understand sporting rivalries.

I doubt there is one common view amongst Wales rugby fans. Some will value the wins over their rivals more than a World Cup semi final and some will think the opposite. Pretty pointless getting into some arguement about it in in my view.

[Nearly Sane]

Moderator There were reports of a posts effectively being off topic. Due to this some posts have been removed.

[ProfessorDavey]

Nope.

You just don't understand sporting rivalries.

Oh I understand sporting rivalries very well indeed.

The biggest sporting rivalries are, without doubt, in club fixtures, not international ones. For the very good reason that you can't really build up that level of rivalry amongst fans who might only get to watch a tiny number of fixtures their international team plays each year. Club rivalries are built up week in week out - something that cannot happen in international sport.

[ProfessorDavey]

I doubt there is one common view amongst Wales rugby fans. Some will value the wins over their rivals more than a World Cup semi final and some will think the opposite. Pretty pointless getting into some arguement about it in in my view.

I agree there isn't a 'common' view - in other words one that all welsh fans agree on. That would be bonkers.

However I'm very confident there is a consensus view - and that is that Wales reaching a World Cup final or Semi-final (regardless of whom they face to get there) will be considered to be much more important than beating England next weekend.

Is next week's game being touted as 'the biggest Wales game since last Feb' - no, of course not - that would be daft. However if Wales get the the quarter final of the world cup I've no doubt this will be considered to be 'the biggest Wales game for 4 years'.

If they win a quarter final the subsequent semi final will be considered 'the biggest Wales game since 2011'.

If they win a semi final the subsequent final will be considered 'the biggest game in the history of Welsh rugby'. And they'd be right in every case regardless of whom Wales are playing.

ANECDOTE alert - spent lunch in Cardiff with hard core Wales rugby fans - passing interest in next week's game - mainly because my niece has a job at the stadium and so will be working during the game.

[ProfessorDavey]

Nope.

You just don't understand sporting rivalries.

Jeremy - you do understand that one of the aspects of the Welsh rivalry with England is that they are obsessed with winning the world cup.

Frankly there is nothing about the history of Wales vs England that can justifiably stand out against the other - victories, much of a muchness, 5/6 nations victories etc - much of a muchness. Except for one thing - the biggest of them all. England have won the world cup and Wales haven't. This rankles more than any number of 6 nations victories, as none of them can change the easy retort - 'well we've won the world cup, how about you'.

There is also a common grump that Wales' 'great' period (the late 1960s and 1970s) was before the world cup started with a view that had the world cup been in existence then that Wales would have won it multiple times (that is of course pure speculation and unlikely to have happened as they still were unable to beat New Zealand, even then).

Point being that a key part of the Wales rugby psyche is that they will alway suffer from a huge 'chip on their shoulder' until they win the world cup. Nothing else - any number of 6 nations grand slams including victories over England will change that. And regardless of a useful local rivalry, the real rivalry is with New Zealand - the team they couldn't beat in their pomp (or since) - the country that is like Wales in so many ways and the only other country that can claim rugby to be the nation sport with any kind of justification.

The true dream for Wales fans is a world cup final victory over New Zealand.

[Nearly Sane]

At this rate with injuries, I'm expecting a call up for Scotland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47291694

[ProfessorDavey]

At this rate with injuries, I'm expecting a call up for Scotland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47291694

I don't understand this stop-start approach to the 6 nations - why have one week gaps sometimes and then 2 week gaps at other times. Point being that Russell was injured in a club game at the weekend - surely better to have the 6 nations over 5 consecutive weekends with the players solely playing for the national side during that period. Wouldn't prevent injuries in the 6 nations matches themselves, but would prevent players getting injured mid tournament in club matches. Would also better replicate the tournament nature of the world cup.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't understand this stop-start approach to the 6 nations - why have one week gaps sometimes and then 2 week gaps at other times. Point being that Russell was injured in a club game at the weekend - surely better to have the 6 nations over 5 consecutive weekends with the players solely playing for the national side during that period. Wouldn't prevent injuries in the 6 nations matches themselves, but would prevent players getting injured mid tournament in club matches. Would also better replicate the tournament nature of the world cup.

Seems everyone has got bored with the 6 Nations already - I thought it was supposed to be the 'best rugby union tournament in the World' - not much evidence of that here given the lack of posting traffic on this thread.

Actually it rather proves my point about the stop-start nature of the tournament - we've only had 3 games since the 10th Feb! - hard to keep the interest going with so little actual sport.

[jeremyp]

Seems everyone has got bored with the 6 Nations already - I thought it was supposed to be the 'best rugby union tournament in the World' - not much evidence of that here given the lack of posting traffic on this thread.

No, what I'm bored of is your obsession with denying everything out of perversity.

For you, it seems if it is not the World Cup it's trivial.

We'll probably see Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy field the strongest teams they have available for these allegedly insignificant matches they have this weekend.

There will be strong contingents of away supporters at all of the three games and there are no games between wildly mismatched opponents unlike the RWC. The RWC has a more prestigious trophy and it's harder to win, but that doesn't make it a better tournament.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, what I'm bored of is your obsession with denying everything out of perversity.

For you, it seems if it is not the World Cup it's trivial.

We'll probably see Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy field the strongest teams they have available for these allegedly insignificant matches they have this weekend.

There will be strong contingents of away supporters at all of the three games and there are no games between wildly mismatched opponents unlike the RWC. The RWC has a more prestigious trophy and it's harder to win, but that doesn't make it a better tournament.

Given that you started the thread I thought you'd be all over the results of a couple of weeks ago - remember apparently one of those games was the most important one of the teams plays (Wales) except for a World Cup final against England. Yet not a murmur from you (and incidentally barely a murmur from all those hard core Wales fans I know, despite the fact that they won). Surely the least we should have expected would be an open top bus parade through Cardiff

Here today, gone tomorrow, forgotten by the following weekend and who cares because the same tired old fixture will come around next year regular as clockwork.

And, perhaps with the exception of Wales, it looks like every team will be checking out their squad players at the weekend in preparation for the autumn.

France are unchanged, but were all ready in full on World Cup prep mode after their opening two defeats. Scotland are resting Laidlaw to look at strength of alternatives. Ireland resting O'Brien and making 7 changes and there will be wholesale changes in the England team. It's kind of like the 3rd round of the FA cup when a big team is playing a minnow, or one of those end of season games involving a mid table side with nothing to play for.

[ProfessorDavey]

... and there are no games between wildly mismatched opponents unlike the RWC.

Err - England vs Italy

Italy have spent most of the year ranked between 14th and 16th in the world. That just as one sided as any of the games in the world cup. And you wouldn't in a million years end up with a game of such mismatched opponents in the penultimate weekend of the world cup.

[Enki]

Seems everyone has got bored with the 6 Nations already - I thought it was supposed to be the 'best rugby union tournament in the World' - not much evidence of that here given the lack of posting traffic on this thread.

Actually it rather proves my point about the stop-start nature of the tournament - we've only had 3 games since the 10th Feb! - hard to keep the interest going with so little actual sport.

I love watching the Six Nations. Our whole family enjoy watching all the matches. My son was captain of his school's rugby union team many years ago and supporting him got me involved in and enthused by the whole game. We also like watching Rugby League, and are Hull FC supporters also. Perhaps there are others on this Message Board who also like RU and the Six Nations Tournament  but, for their own reasons, choose not to get involved. In my case I don't get involved mainly because of what I see as the pernickety and point scoring(excuse the pun) nature of this thread. I find that rather boring.

Incidentally this has been written just after watching a superb action packed and thrilling game between Scotland and Wales. I'll leave you all to it.

[ProfessorDavey]

... there are no games between wildly mismatched opponents unlike the RWC.

Nope, none whatsoever.

57-14 

[ProfessorDavey]

... there are no games between wildly mismatched opponents ...

Ireland vs France

[jeremyp]

Err - England vs Italy

Italy have spent most of the year ranked between 14th and 16th in the world. That just as one sided as any of the games in the world cup. And you wouldn't in a million years end up with a game of such mismatched opponents in the penultimate weekend of the world cup.

Italy don’t always lose all their matches in the Six Nations.

Also, are you aware that the Six Nations has a league structure? France is going to be playing Italy in the ultimate weekend of the tournament. That’s the way leagues work.