Climate & religion

[Aruntraveller]

Religion on the other hand teaches self control and responsibility

No it doesn't, at least not fully across the spectrum of religion.

Don't tell me that you haven't noticed the ostentatious wealth of the new American churches which practice the very things you decry " a mindset of power and greed".

Or indeed have you looked closely at the self control and responsibility  practiced by the RC church.

There are so many examples of charlatans in religion that your claim of religion teaching such things as self control etc is laughable.

[Maeght]

1. Science and technology are directly implicated in much of the earth's and human problems. I have already highlighted things like plastics, pesticides, radiation, even certain medicines....and many other things. 

2. Besides these products, there is the mindset that science & tech impose on people. A microscopic and zoom-in mindset that by its very nature is shortsighted and incapable of seeing the big picture.

3. On the other hand religion & philosophy impose a wider zoom-out perspective which by its very nature takes a holistic view of things. This broader view generates wisdom and foresight.

4. Science & tech also impose a mindset of power and greed. The impression that we can do anything we want and find a way out of any tricky situation. As I have mentioned earlier, colonizing other planets and getting away from a ruined earth, was one such dream. Hawking actually wrote that we should try to colonize other planets within the next 100 years!! 

5. Religion on the other hand teaches self control and responsibility.  These mindsets do matter enormously on the way we think and live.

I don't think your views that religion leads to self control and responsibility whereas science imposes a mind set of power and greed stand up to scrutiny at all. This seems to me to be a simplistic idealised view which takes no account of human nature nor of the actual history of those involved in the early days of industrialisation and scientific endeavour.

[Stranger]

2. Besides these products, there is the mindset that science & tech impose on people. A microscopic and zoom-in mindset that by its very nature is shortsighted and incapable of seeing the big picture.

Your evidence for this assertion? I'd say there is nothing more mind-expanding that tacking the fundamentals of physics and cosmology. Also, science has shown us the Earth from space and emphasised how small and fragile our environment is.

4. Science & tech also impose a mindset of power and greed...

How on earth do you think this gets imposed?

3. On the other hand religion & philosophy impose a wider zoom-out perspective which by its very nature takes a holistic view of things. This broader view generates wisdom and foresight.
...
5. Religion on the other hand teaches self control and responsibility.  These mindsets do matter enormously on the way we think and live.

Neatly glossing over the persecution, prejudice, brutality, cruelty, conflict, wars, and deaths perpetrated in the name of various gods (cue a no true Scotsman fallacy).   

Science is a neutral tool that we can use or misuse. Religion, on the other hand, encourages irrational, baseless beliefs and a disregard for objective facts and evidence. Notice that climate change denial is prevalent amongst the religious right in the USA, for example.

[torridon]

1. Science and technology are directly implicated in much of the earth's and human problems. I have already highlighted things like plastics, pesticides, radiation, even certain medicines....and many other things. 

2. Besides these products, there is the mindset that science & tech impose on people. A microscopic and zoom-in mindset that by its very nature is shortsighted and incapable of seeing the big picture.

3. On the other hand religion & philosophy impose a wider zoom-out perspective which by its very nature takes a holistic view of things. This broader view generates wisdom and foresight.

4. Science & tech also impose a mindset of power and greed. The impression that we can do anything we want and find a way out of any tricky situation. As I have mentioned earlier, colonizing other planets and getting away from a ruined earth, was one such dream. Hawking actually wrote that we should try to colonize other planets within the next 100 years!! 

5. Religion on the other hand teaches self control and responsibility.  These mindsets do matter enormously on the way we think and live.

Full of lazy generalisations and false equivalences.  Not one of your best posts.

[Roses]

No it doesn't, at least not fully across the spectrum of religion.

Don't tell me that you haven't noticed the ostentatious wealth of the new American churches which practice the very things you decry " a mindset of power and greed".

Or indeed have you looked closely at the self control and responsibility  practiced by the RC church.

There are so many examples of charlatans in religion that your claim of religion teaching such things as self control etc is laughable.

Like many of those TV evangelists who take the gullible for a ride.

[Sriram]

Whilst scientific discoveries have not always been beneficial to the planet and humankind, many have. As for religion, that has caused many problems over the centuries and still does.

You are talking about few wars and some fanatics flying planes into buildings.  Yes. There are some negatives of religions.

Compare this to the million of tons of plastics in the oceans, insects getting eradicated, species becoming extinct,  radiation everywhere, humans facing large scale catastrophes.........  And after all this, the moronic suggestion of running away to another planet (made even by eminent scientists)!  As arrogant and irresponsible as it can get.

The problems with religions seem tame by comparison.   

[Roses]

You are talking about few wars and some fanatics flying planes into buildings.  Yes. There are some negatives of religions.

Compare this to the million of tons of plastics in the oceans, insects getting eradicated, species becoming extinct,  radiation everywhere, humans facing large scale catastrophes.........  And after all this, the moronic suggestion of running away to another planet (made even by eminent scientists)!  As arrogant and irresponsible as it can get.

The problems with religions seem tame by comparison.

Really? Ever heard of ISIS, who are a major problem in this day and age?

[Aruntraveller]

You are talking about few wars and some fanatics flying planes into buildings.  Yes. There are some negatives of religions.

Compare this to the million of tons of plastics in the oceans, insects getting eradicated, species becoming extinct,  radiation everywhere, humans facing large scale catastrophes.........  And after all this, the moronic suggestion of running away to another planet (made even by eminent scientists)!  As arrogant and irresponsible as it can get.

The problems with religions seem tame by comparison.

Questions:

Do you think being religious encourages people to use less plastic?

Do you think listening to emknent scientists, ecologists encourages people to use less plastic?

To me you seem to be making category errors in your analysis.

[wigginhall]

How are problems with plastics caused by science?  That doesn't make sense.   It's human beings that decided to produce tons of it, and discard it carelessly.   But that carelessness isn't driven by science.  As somebody said, science is neutral.  Lazy thinking.

[Sriram]

How are problems with plastics caused by science?  That doesn't make sense.   It's human beings that decided to produce tons of it, and discard it carelessly.   But that carelessness isn't driven by science.  As somebody said, science is neutral.  Lazy thinking.

Everything is done by humans. Even religious matters. 

[Nearly Sane]

Everything is done by humans. Even religious matters.

Which undermines your idea that science and religion cause different approaches. They are just things we do.

[Udayana]

Nope. Intelligence is not going to save us unless it results in new technology. For example, intelligence by itself is not going to save the problem of disposing of plastics. How do you propose to solve that issue without new technology?

We already know how to stop producing non-degradable or non-recyclable plastics, and have technolgy that allows for the collection, safe disposal and or recycling of the plastics already used or in use. So what is causing the problem?

[Nearly Sane]

We already know how to stop producing non-degradable or non-recyclable plastics, and have technolgy that allows for the collection, safe disposal and or recycling of the plastics already used or in use. So what is causing the problem?

Surely, if we take that to be the case, it's the lack of will to do so?

[ekim]

Surely, if we take that to be the case, it's the lack of will to do so?

It's certainly causing a problem here:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-46518747

[Dicky Underpants]

  And the same applies to you stating that Dicky placed the blame on the Abrahamic religions. Maybe if you don't want to be misrepresented, you shouldn't misrepresent others.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Udayana]

It's certainly causing a problem here:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-46518747

oh never mind .. we must embrace technology and hold on - they will all be fine once science finds a cure for cancer...

[Dicky Underpants]

oh never mind .. we must embrace technology and hold on - they will all be fine once science finds a cure for cancer...

If only we knew somewhere to start from that might make an immediate impact in stopping humanity's rush towards disaster. I sometimes think that worthily recycling rubbish and using one's own shopping bags multiple times is hardly causing any significant improvement at all.
Ah well - it's better to light one small candle than curse the dark - as they say....

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

There is no doubt that religions have done lots of good over the centuries. It is because of religions that we humans have become civilized, compassionate, disciplined and have developed a feeling of universal kinship.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

Of course there are some who go the other way. That is true of every group. But as far as the general population is concerned, religions have only helped in integration within their groups,  kinship, control, love and compassion.

As far as sci & tech are concerned while there are many good things that have come out of them, the enormous damage to the planet is almost entirely due to their development and the false hope they give of repair and of alternative habitat. 

It no use saying that humans do all this. Of course it is humans who do all this! No one denied that. Things don't happen by themselves in religion either.

But religions teach patience, compassion, sacrifice, respect, responsible living and contentment. The general religious population world over, follow that.

Sci & tech (and the atheism that they have spawned) on the other hand encourage ego centricism, materialism, even hedonism and a sense of power and control over the planet that has lead to such catastrophic consequences.

It cannot be denied that as Sci & tech grew in the late 19th and 20th centuries, the damage to the planet started.

Cheers.

Sriram

[torridon]

I think you've got a very rosy view of religions in general. How do you reconcile universal kinship with the clash of civilisations manifested by Islam and Christianity?  This shows that religions tend to follow tribal impulses, they create strong bonds within group but divisions between groups.  Religious beliefs are a barrier to universal kinship, something we now need to overcome as we need to see ourselves as global citizens, human beings, rather than just christians or muslims or Indians or Chelsea supporters.

[torridon]

It cannot be denied that as Sci & tech grew in the late 19th and 20th centuries, the damage to the planet started.

Yes, it can be denied.  The 'damage', disruption might be a better word, started way back.  We could make a case for the agricultural revolution and the subsequent deforestation as the start point; but then you could go even further back, to the palaeolithic, when we learned to make sharp stone tools such as the Clovis point, which enabled early humans to completely wipe out some of the Stone Age megafauna. 

[Gordon]

There is no doubt that religions have done lots of good over the centuries. It is because of religions that we humans have become civilized, compassionate, disciplined and have developed a feeling of universal kinship.

Would you say that has worked well in places like, say, Belfast?

But religions teach patience, compassion, sacrifice, respect, responsible living and contentment. The general religious population world over, follow that.

Yet history is littered with religious conflicts, often between subsets of the same religion.

[Maeght]

Hi everyone,

There is no doubt that religions have done lots of good over the centuries. It is because of religions that we humans have become civilized, compassionate, disciplined and have developed a feeling of universal kinship.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

Of course there are some who go the other way. That is true of every group. But as far as the general population is concerned, religions have only helped in integration within their groups,  kinship, control, love and compassion.

As far as sci & tech are concerned while there are many good things that have come out of them, the enormous damage to the planet is almost entirely due to their development and the false hope they give of repair and of alternative habitat. 

It no use saying that humans do all this. Of course it is humans who do all this! No one denied that. Things don't happen by themselves in religion either.

But religions teach patience, compassion, sacrifice, respect, responsible living and contentment. The general religious population world over, follow that.

Sci & tech (and the atheism that they have spawned) on the other hand encourage ego centricism, materialism, even hedonism and a sense of power and control over the planet that has lead to such catastrophic consequences.

It cannot be denied that as Sci & tech grew in the late 19th and 20th centuries, the damage to the planet started.

Cheers.

Sriram

That's just repeating your thesis without addressing any of the counter comments. As has been said, you have a rosy view of religions and seem to be ignoring the history of industrialisation and early science which involved people with religious beliefs. All around the world religious people are acting in a way which is damaging the planet. Scientists are looking to deal with the problems, some of whom have no religion. Your thesis doesn't stack up to me.

Re the link, I asked once before if doing this is just a way of saving you from retyping your views, or whether you think it somehow gives your views more authority. You didn't answer. Could you now?

[Roses]

Hi everyone,

There is no doubt that religions have done lots of good over the centuries. It is because of religions that we humans have become civilized, compassionate, disciplined and have developed a feeling of universal kinship.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

Of course there are some who go the other way. That is true of every group. But as far as the general population is concerned, religions have only helped in integration within their groups,  kinship, control, love and compassion.

As far as sci & tech are concerned while there are many good things that have come out of them, the enormous damage to the planet is almost entirely due to their development and the false hope they give of repair and of alternative habitat. 

It no use saying that humans do all this. Of course it is humans who do all this! No one denied that. Things don't happen by themselves in religion either.

But religions teach patience, compassion, sacrifice, respect, responsible living and contentment. The general religious population world over, follow that.

Sci & tech (and the atheism that they have spawned) on the other hand encourage ego centricism, materialism, even hedonism and a sense of power and control over the planet that has lead to such catastrophic consequences.

It cannot be denied that as Sci & tech grew in the late 19th and 20th centuries, the damage to the planet started.

Cheers.

Sriram

You live in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that to be true.

[wigginhall]

I think somebody pointed out that deforesting started a long time ago, and of course, carries on.   According to the OP, this is down to the invention of axes, and not human rapacity.   Upside down thinking.

[ekim]

I think you've got a very rosy view of religions in general. How do you reconcile universal kinship with the clash of civilisations manifested by Islam and Christianity?  This shows that religions tend to follow tribal impulses, they create strong bonds within group but divisions between groups.  Religious beliefs are a barrier to universal kinship, something we now need to overcome as we need to see ourselves as global citizens, human beings, rather than just christians or muslims or Indians or Chelsea supporters.

Unfortunately that has become true.  What often has started as a simple teaching, has attracted those who have seen it as a way to exercise power over others and collective self centeredness has developed as a result.  This invites conflict with those of a different persuasion.  There have been attempts in the past to try to establish what is common to all established religions and focus on what might unify them rather than divide them but with little apparent success.  I think 'Perennial Philosophy' was one such attempt, which might appeal to some individuals but is no match for an established emotional mass mind.  The Chelsea and Millwall supporters of the religious status quo are unlikely to transform.  It is probably the same driving force which allows a human being to use scientific method to develop Novichok, mustard gas, nuclear weapons etc.  It is human nature which needs to transform on a mass scale but I don't see this happening with the world population expanding as rapidly as it is.  Even when the world population was smaller in the days of Lao Tse, his verse in the Tao Te Ching probably fell on deaf ears.....

In a small country with few people
Even though mechanisation abounds,
The people do not need it.
Let them live as if death is imminent.
Though transportation be available they would not travel;
Though weaponry existed, it would not be used;
Simple communication would replace writing;
Food would be satisfying;
Clothing and accommodation would be comfortable.
They would be happy with their way of living.
Though they live within view and earshot of neighbouring countries,
They would not be tempted to travel there throughout their lives.