Author Topic: Climate & religion  (Read 12039 times)

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2019, 09:57:57 AM »
I think you've got a very rosy view of religions in general. How do you reconcile universal kinship with the clash of civilisations manifested by Islam and Christianity?  This shows that religions tend to follow tribal impulses, they create strong bonds within group but divisions between groups.  Religious beliefs are a barrier to universal kinship, something we now need to overcome as we need to see ourselves as global citizens, human beings, rather than just christians or muslims or Indians or Chelsea supporters.


Compared to the number of religions and segregated communities in the past, there are now just four major religions for 5 billion people across continents! If that is not integration...what is it? 

In India itself there were probably dozens of religions in the past. Today they all are under one common Hinduism.


Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18274
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2019, 10:04:35 AM »

Compared to the number of religions and segregated communities in the past, there are now just four major religions for 5 billion people across continents! If that is not integration...what is it? 

In India itself there were probably dozens of religions in the past. Today they all are under one common Hinduism.

That seems like over-simplification: for instance, both Islam and Christianity has been riven with factionalism for centuries, and from this much conflict has occurred and remains an issue.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2019, 10:16:26 AM »

Compared to the number of religions and segregated communities in the past, there are now just four major religions for 5 billion people across continents! If that is not integration...what is it? 

In India itself there were probably dozens of religions in the past. Today they all are under one common Hinduism.

To a degree that might be true of Hinduism, being naturally polytheistic.  Not so true of many other religions though, where whatever interfaith progress has been made has been largely due to people's basic humanity shining through despite their religion, not because of it.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2019, 10:36:17 AM »
Part of the problem here is that the whole idea is based on the reification of science and religion. They aren't separate things, they don't lead behaviour. To be fair it's a fairly widespread on the board to treat religion as a thing, and give it credit or blame dependent on your viewpoint. It's as ever to me just a manifestation of what we are, and were you given a magic wand to remove it, you would be removing so much of what we are that you would have no idea of the consequences.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2019, 10:51:57 AM »
Very odd to use India as an example. It is amongst the topmost, if not the worst, country for pollution, has had regular outbreaks of communal violence, let alone the million people killed over religious identity during partition, and most people are religiously obsessed.

Rather than the content utopia suggested by Lao Tse (thanks ekim) in many ways India is the most capitalist of all countries and the least community minded. The well off have grand houses and care nothing for anyone outside their walls or living in the streets.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2019, 12:17:04 PM »
To a degree that might be true of Hinduism, being naturally polytheistic.  Not so true of many other religions though, where whatever interfaith progress has been made has been largely due to people's basic humanity shining through despite their religion, not because of it.

Two billion people identify as Christians. This is across continents, race, language, economic status, gender, age and all other differences. Similarly Islam has 1.5 billion. Hindus 1 billion and Buddhists 400 million. No nationality or other political or economic grouping can claim a similar kinship or integration. 

Maybe there are minor differences  within these groups but that is what humans are like. Even a small country like UK has its divisions and differences within themselves. Even a tiny island like Ireland has its division.

Just imagine millennia ago how many different tribal groups with geographic, racial, linguistic and economic differences would have existed in Asia, Africa, Europe etc.  It is religion that has brought most of them together under just a few groupings.

Such a phenomenon is unthinkable without religion.

Also, most of the values of humanism, compassion, universal brotherhood, equality, sharing that we today believe in has been possible only because of religious teachings over the centuries. 

This is besides the hundreds of charitable institutions, hospitals, education institutions and so on, that have been run by religious groups. 

Religion has been the single most civilizing and integrating force on this planet all these centuries. There is no doubt about that at all.



wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2019, 12:23:23 PM »
Well, there's nothing like an unsubstantiated assertion to get the morning off with a bang!
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2019, 12:33:11 PM »
Maybe there are minor differences  within these groups...

You call killing each other "minor differences", do you?

Such a phenomenon is unthinkable without religion.

Also, most of the values of humanism, compassion, universal brotherhood, equality, sharing that we today believe in has been possible only because of religious teachings over the centuries. 

...

Religion has been the single most civilizing and integrating force on this planet all these centuries. There is no doubt about that at all.

And your evidence for these sweeping assertions is....    missing.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2019, 12:45:50 PM »
Religion isn't a force. Stop reifying.

wigginhall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17730
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2019, 01:10:28 PM »
Minor differences! Centuries of religious wars in Europe, oh well, nothing too bad.  The 30 Years War killed about a third of German population, still look on the bright side, err,  well, err.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7990
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2019, 03:50:15 PM »
Two billion people identify as Christians. This is across continents, race, language, economic status, gender, age and all other differences. Similarly Islam has 1.5 billion. Hindus 1 billion and Buddhists 400 million. No nationality or other political or economic grouping can claim a similar kinship or integration. 

Maybe there are minor differences  within these groups but that is what humans are like. Even a small country like UK has its divisions and differences within themselves. Even a tiny island like Ireland has its division.

Just imagine millennia ago how many different tribal groups with geographic, racial, linguistic and economic differences would have existed in Asia, Africa, Europe etc.  It is religion that has brought most of them together under just a few groupings.

Such a phenomenon is unthinkable without religion.

Also, most of the values of humanism, compassion, universal brotherhood, equality, sharing that we today believe in has been possible only because of religious teachings over the centuries. 

This is besides the hundreds of charitable institutions, hospitals, education institutions and so on, that have been run by religious groups. 

[b]Religion has been the single most civilizing and integrating force on this planet all these centuries. There is no doubt about that at all.
[/b]
[/u]


There is plenty of doubt about that statement of yours. ::)
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2019, 04:02:28 PM »
Two recent examples of disintegration relating to religious persuasion and its opposition:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-47249133

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2019, 04:17:24 PM »
Two recent examples of disintegration relating to religious persuasion and its opposition:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-47249133

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps


Some incidents of Islamic terrorism are hardly representative of religions everywhere. I don't know what your second link is meant  to say.

Secondly, the long term effects of religions have been very positive as I have pointed out above.  Without religions we would not be the civilized and integrated society that we are today.

As I have said in my article, hopefully there will be further integration and unification so that in course of time, there are just two or maybe just one religion for almost all of humanity.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2019, 04:39:20 PM »

Some incidents of Islamic terrorism are hardly representative of religions everywhere. I don't know what your second link is meant  to say.

Secondly, the long term effects of religions have been very positive as I have pointed out above.  Without religions we would not be the civilized and integrated society that we are today.

As I have said in my article, hopefully there will be further integration and unification so that in course of time, there are just two or maybe just one religion for almost all of humanity.
Stop reifying.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2019, 04:44:52 PM »

Some incidents of Islamic terrorism are hardly representative of religions everywhere. I don't know what your second link is meant  to say.

Secondly, the long term effects of religions have been very positive as I have pointed out above.  Without religions we would not be the civilized and integrated society that we are today.

As I have said in my article, hopefully there will be further integration and unification so that in course of time, there are just two or maybe just one religion for almost all of humanity.
Anything against your 'thesis'  can be ignored because it's against your  thesis.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2019, 05:04:22 PM »
Secondly, the long term effects of religions have been very positive as I have pointed out above.  Without religions we would not be the civilized and integrated society that we are today.

How do you know? How have you measured this "very positive"? How much positivity balances out all the wars, death and persecution? How do you know we wouldn't be just as, or more, civilized and integrated without religion?

You seem to be making increasingly absurd claims and being increasingly closed-minded and dogmatic about them.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2019, 05:16:09 PM »
How do you know? How have you measured this "very positive"? How much positivity balances out all the wars, death and persecution? How do you know we wouldn't be just as, or more, civilized and integrated without religion?
Er, spectacular drop in religion at a time of increased racism, nationalism, economic suicidalism........perhaps.

One wonders what non religion could bring to the party apart from generating idle hands, minds and souls ready for the devil to make work for.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2019, 05:33:37 PM »

As I have said in my article, hopefully there will be further integration and unification so that in course of time, there are just two or maybe just one religion for almost all of humanity.

I doubt that would ever happen. People are diverse, groups split and regroup.  In the early Christian church, there was (more or less) just, The Church.  Now there are thousands of denominations with varying beliefs and practices
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 05:37:04 PM by torridon »

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2019, 05:41:06 PM »

Some incidents of Islamic terrorism are hardly representative of religions everywhere. I don't know what your second link is meant  to say.

Secondly, the long term effects of religions have been very positive as I have pointed out above.  Without religions we would not be the civilized and integrated society that we are today.

As I have said in my article, hopefully there will be further integration and unification so that in course of time, there are just two or maybe just one religion for almost all of humanity.

The links were intended to illustrate persuasion/indoctrination at work.  Those who hope to wield power will use methods, usually repetitive, sometimes punitive, to subdue populations and create a subliminal integration, what is sometimes called mass mind.  The disintegrating effect arises when it is in conflict with a mass mind of a different persuasion as in the link relating to India and Pakistan and causes separative action rather than unitive and comments like this: "Federal Minister Arun Jaitley said India would take "all possible diplomatic steps" to cut Pakistan off from the international community."  In the case of the second link, the conflict is between the Chinese communistic political indoctrination and that of the Muslim Uighurs living in China.  According to the article, it seems that the Chinese way to resolve the problem, so that there is no disintegration, is to 're-educate' them in special internment camps.  The Chinese version of what you say might be 'Without communism we would not be the civilised and integrated society that we are today.'  I'm not as optimistic as you.  Once groups of people emotionally identify with -isms and -anities then conflict is not far away, in my opinion.  However, I could be wrong.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2019, 04:19:06 AM »
I doubt that would ever happen. People are diverse, groups split and regroup.  In the early Christian church, there was (more or less) just, The Church.  Now there are thousands of denominations with varying beliefs and practices



You see only the differences...typical of the Zoom-In mind.  Try to see the similarities...and you will see it! It is a perception (programming) problem.

Hundreds of religions across the world are today just four. That is a very good indication of integration. Not that differences will never exist.

There is a good chance that these religions will further unify to form just two (Faith and Dharmic religions). Maybe in course of time even just one religion with one common philosophy of life. I am convinced that it will happen sometime. 

But for that to happen, the microscopic mental make up and influence of science has to ease.



Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2019, 04:24:47 AM »
Hi everyone,

Looking at only the  wars and  terrorism is too myopic.   Only a few hundred or thousand people are involved in these.  There are billions of people who are pious, compassionate and devout because of whom the world is today civilized and stable.

Most of you are having a meme problem. Your fondly held beliefs are being challenged and you just don't want to let go.

Cheers.

Sriram

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2019, 07:04:18 AM »


You see only the differences...typical of the Zoom-In mind.  Try to see the similarities...and you will see it! It is a perception (programming) problem.

Hundreds of religions across the world are today just four. That is a very good indication of integration. Not that differences will never exist.

There is a good chance that these religions will further unify to form just two (Faith and Dharmic religions). Maybe in course of time even just one religion with one common philosophy of life. I am convinced that it will happen sometime. 

But for that to happen, the microscopic mental make up and influence of science has to ease.

Firstly, I think you are just choosing to ignore the point about diversity, perhaps because it doesn't fit with your preferred narrative.  There'll never be a one-size-fits-all religion because humans will always differ to a degree; what suits me will not suit my neighbour.

Secondly, I don't think we can simply ascribe the extent to which we are more civilised and kind and thoughtful now than in previous generations to the influence of religions either; as Sane points out, religion is not an influence that operates on us, it is something we choose to do and furthermore I don't see how we could disentangle multiple other factors such as increasing prosperity, health, longevity, education from the calculation.  I don't think fundamental human nature will have changed over the course of ten thousand years; what has changed is the cultures that humans find themselves living in.  Culture accumulates, knowledge accumulates, and as a result, humans in the modern era can afford to be more generous and kind and we benefit from better understanding.

Thirdly, I don't see how the 'influence of science can ease'.  Science brings us better knowledge, and I can see no point in blindfolding ourselves so that we cannot see what science reveals.  That's a nonsense attitude to life.

Fourthly, your vision of a humanity united in a common religion will never come to pass, quite frankly, because human civilisation looks set to be on a disaster course and I see few signs that we can avert it. What survives into future centuries is hard to predict but it's unlikely to be consistent with some simplistic notion of an arc of improving human civilisedness over time.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:09:32 AM by torridon »

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2019, 07:21:37 AM »
Firstly, I think you are just choosing to ignore the point about diversity, perhaps because it doesn't fit with your preferred narrative.  There'll never be a one-size-fits-all religion because humans will always differ to a degree; what suits me will not suit my neighbour.

Secondly, I don't think we can simply ascribe the extent to which we are more civilised and kind and thoughtful now than in previous generations to the influence of religions either; as Sane points out, religion is not an influence that operates on us, it is something we choose to do and furthermore I don't see how we could disentangle multiple other factors such as increasing prosperity, health, longevity, education from the calculation.  I don't think fundamental human nature will have changed over the course of ten thousand years; what has changed is the cultures that humans find themselves living in.  Culture accumulates, knowledge accumulates, and as a result, humans in the modern era can afford to be more generous and kind and we benefit from better understanding.

Thirdly, I don't see how the 'influence of science can ease'.  Science brings us better knowledge, and I can see no point in blindfolding ourselves so that we cannot see what science reveals.  That's a nonsense attitude to life.

Fourthly, your vision of a humanity united in a common religion will never come to pass, quite frankly, because human civilisation looks set to be on a disaster course and I see few signs that we can avert it. What survives into future centuries is hard to predict.


1. Diversity is only how we look at something. We can see our body as a collection of different organs or we can choose to see the human in it. Similarly differences will exist even within one family, between husband and wife. That does not mean they are not one unit. Christians for all their differences are still Christians. Hindus for all their differences are still Hindus.  This religious bond is far stronger emotionally than even a political/national bond.

2. There is no other civilizing factor than religion. It has taught all humans around the world similar lessons on cooperation, compassion, brotherhood and so on.  It is the notion of one familial bond under a universal Father that builds kinship. Not that brothers never fight.....but nonetheless. You tell me which other civilizing factor is common to all people around the world.

3. The influence of science can ease once we stop taking it so seriously that our world view gets corrupted by it. Science is fine in its place but not as a philosophy of life. 

4. Whoever survives the climate change, they will unite under one common philosophy/religion.  I have no doubts on that.  By then wisdom would have dawned, I hope.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2019, 07:37:31 AM »

3. The influence of science can ease once we stop taking it so seriously that our world view gets corrupted by it. Science is fine in its place but not as a philosophy of life. 


Noone that I know takes science as a philosophy of life; it is a tool that we use to gain better knowledge and what point would there be in ignoring knowledge ?  Rather than taking the science too seriously I think the opposite is true, we don't take the findings of science seriously enough and that is why we are facing an ecological apocalypse in the near to medium future.  Since the days of the Kyoto agreement, science has been warning that our trajectory is unsustainable and needs to change, and yet year after year our atmospheric carbon levels continue to rise remorselessly.  We ignore the science, because it disturbs our comfortable world view, because at the end of the day, we want to carry on, business as usual.  A head in the sand approach will reap its terrible rewards in the end.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Climate & religion
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2019, 07:46:11 AM »

4. Whoever survives the climate change, they will unite under one common philosophy/religion.  I have no doubts on that.  By then wisdom would have dawned, I hope.

Why no doubt ? I would have considerable doubt about that, the predictions are so uncertain.  History teaches us that civilisations rise and fall, and then new civilisations rise from the ashes.  Our civilisation has risen to a far higher degree than any previous one, and as they say, the higher you climb, the harder you will fall.  Our downfall will be more thorough and final than all previous collapses.  The goths sacking Rome did not have nuclear weapons; we do.  The ancient Assyrians carved their knowledge into stone; ours resides in Californian server farms and suchlike, our knowledge will be lost and any future humanity will be starting effectively from scratch all over again.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 08:46:13 AM by torridon »