Author Topic: Religion  (Read 17504 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2019, 01:49:30 PM »
Sriram,

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I have pointed out many times about the stubborn blind man and his argument about Light.

And you’ve been corrected on it just as many times. You just assume your premise to be correct – effectively, “light is real so so are my various claims if only you had the faculties to identify them”. You’d be better advised to try an analogy with, say, phlogiston as the evidence for that is analogous to the evidence for the claims you make – ie, there’s none at all.

Your problem has nothing to do with the stubbornness of the people who challenge you. Rather your problem is that, if your claims aren’t susceptible to reason and evidence then it‘s your job to propose a different method to investigate them.   

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It is the same here.

No it isn’t.

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Sorry....but nothing can be done. Faculties and the mind don't open up due to arguments.   

Yes they do. Make an argument that isn’t logically hopeless and you’ll change minds. If not for arguments though, what do you propose that people use instead to investigate your claims?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 01:56:12 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2019, 02:14:04 PM »


All this has been discussed several times. Try the threads on Panpsychism and Soul.  Try the articles on Evidence, Zoom In..Zoom Out and Two boxes syndrome also.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/the-two-boxes-syndrome/



Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2019, 02:40:06 PM »

All this has been discussed several times. Try the threads on Panpsychism and Soul.  Try the articles on Evidence, Zoom In..Zoom Out and Two boxes syndrome also.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/the-two-boxes-syndrome/
Sriram

I've just read the zoom-in zoom-out link and I see your point . The thing is we already instinctively recognise these people in our daily lives . I call zoom-out people wooly headed 'thinkers ' who just accept what they're told , eg, TV advert that tells us we need Domestos bleach so people go and buy their product at a high price .

But the zoom-in person (like me) will read the label and find the active ingredients then look for a similar product with the same ingredients at much lower price 

The point being , I'm hard to fool in most cases (never say never)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2019, 03:31:26 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
All this has been discussed several times. Try the threads on Panpsychism and Soul.  Try the articles on Evidence, Zoom In..Zoom Out and Two boxes syndrome also.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/evidence/

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/zoom-in-zoom-out/

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/the-two-boxes-syndrome/

Except of course your posts on those threads and your "articles" are riddled from beginning to end with straw men, longueurs and logical fallacies - none of which problems you will ever address when they're explained to you.

How do you that this helps you?   
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2019, 03:45:47 PM »
Sriram,

Coda: Just had a look at your article re evidence. Apart from wanting to tear my eyes out at the various mistakes it contains, I love the casual ending of: "In matters of spirituality, the same arguments apply"!

Priceless, just priceless. OK, my turn then: In matters of leprechaunology, the same arguments apply.

As neither of us it seems need to bother defining either "spirituality" or "leprechaunology", and as both of us it seems can just assume that we're right only, you know, the evidence for both assertions is kind of tricky or impossible to produce, presumably you're just as cool with my assertion as you expect others to be with yours right?   
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 03:53:24 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2019, 03:56:39 PM »
Sriram

I've just read the zoom-in zoom-out link and I see your point . The thing is we already instinctively recognise these people in our daily lives . I call zoom-out people wooly headed 'thinkers ' who just accept what they're told , eg, TV advert that tells us we need Domestos bleach so people go and buy their product at a high price .

But the zoom-in person (like me) will read the label and find the active ingredients then look for a similar product with the same ingredients at much lower price 

The point being , I'm hard to fool in most cases (never say never)

Hi Walter....at least you are honest enough to 'see my point'.....instead of repeating the old round of sniggers and jeers.  Thanks.  ;)  :D



SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2019, 03:58:24 PM »
Lock this thread before I slit my wrists!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2019, 04:12:22 PM »
Sriram,

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Hi Walter....at least you are honest enough to 'see my point'.....instead of repeating the old round of sniggers and jeers.  Thanks.  ;)  :D

Explaining to you where you go wrong isn't sniggering and jeering - it's just explaining to you where you go wrong.

Why not just for once try to address those explanations rather than ignore them? 
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2019, 04:52:59 PM »

Ha...Ha!  What the heck are you going on and on about addressing some explanation..!  :D


Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2019, 05:05:05 PM »
Hi Walter....at least you are honest enough to 'see my point'.....instead of repeating the old round of sniggers and jeers.  Thanks.  ;)  :D
Sriram
I thought I might lighten-up on you for a minute to see if it would give you some confidence and motivation to give us some explanations or anything we can discus and work with . How about it now ?

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2019, 05:11:06 PM »

No Walter. If all the earlier threads I have referred and my articles have not 'explained' anything to you....nothing will.  So, lets just leave it at that, shall we?!  :)

Thanks.

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2019, 05:27:46 PM »
No Walter. If all the earlier threads I have referred and my articles have not 'explained' anything to you....nothing will.  So, lets just leave it at that, shall we?!  :)

Thanks.
Sriram

I've just read the article about 'evidence' I had high hopes but they were dashed not very far into it .
I'm puzzled why you cant see what's wrong with it . Please help me to understand , thanks

jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2019, 09:12:24 PM »
I have pointed out many times about the stubborn blind man and his argument about Light. It is the same here.

Sorry....but nothing can be done. Faculties and the mind don't open up due to arguments.   :)

Try reading the thread on Panpsychism again....!
The trouble is that, if you want to convince a blind man that there is a world outside of his perceptions, the best way is to demonstrate its existence to him, not spout platitudes about how he won’t open his mind.

Everything we say comes down to us asking you to show that your ideas are true. Nothing more, nothing less. You always come up empty.
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2019, 05:20:15 AM »
Sriram

I've just read the article about 'evidence' I had high hopes but they were dashed not very far into it .
I'm puzzled why you cant see what's wrong with it . Please help me to understand , thanks



Oh...oh!   Your honesty got compromised very quickly! What a pity!   ;)

Well...If you have actually read through the complete article...there is nothing more I can say here. 

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2019, 05:22:27 AM »
The trouble is that, if you want to convince a blind man that there is a world outside of his perceptions, the best way is to demonstrate its existence to him, not spout platitudes about how he won’t open his mind.

Everything we say comes down to us asking you to show that your ideas are true. Nothing more, nothing less. You always come up empty.

I have said many times that it is not about  more information....it is about perception.  I cannot make you change it.

In any case, this specific discussion started with my comment on the Unconscious mind. What do you want me to demonstrate?   

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2019, 06:10:04 AM »

Hi everyone,

I am sorry guys but there is nothing for me to demonstrate or provide evidence for. I have nothing more to say than what I have already said multiple times here and in my articles that I link. There is no additional information for me to provide.

It is about the way we look at the world.  It is about perception.  That is not likely to change whatever I may say. 

The reason I don't take any of your criticisms seriously is because of the 'Zero error' that I ascribe to your view points. The problem is multi fold.

1. Many of you are in the mental stage of adolescence. (Please refer to my article on 'Three stages' at my blog site).  This makes many of you habitual skeptics and cynics....full of 'I know it all' self importance. It is a mindset that cannot change at this stage given that many of you people are fairly old.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/04/20/three-stages/

2. Additionally, many of you have a Zoom-In mind set due to your science training and cultural  environment. This makes your thinking microscopic....full of reductionist and detailed nitpicking....with no total view at all. This is a problem while discussing philosophy and spirituality.

3. Besides the above two, there is also the 'Two boxes syndrome' because of which many of you have two segregated and a bipolar way of reacting to similar issues. You clearly have bias and prejudice in the way you choose to look at certain phenomena.

4. Some of you believe that merely joining together and badgering someone can bring them around. Not likely! That is bullying, not discussion.

But, having said all this, I still enjoy posting here because it also makes me rethink on certain issues....besides having something to do, of course.

So, keep it going folks.  :)

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Where is torridon, I wonder?!  I could hold a conversation with him without the issue getting derailed or ending in name calling.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:01:26 AM by Sriram »

SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2019, 07:24:28 AM »

Hi everyone,

I am sorry guys but there is nothing for me to demonstrate or provide evidence for. I have nothing more to say than what I have already said multiple times here and in my articles that I link. There is no additional information for me to provide.

It is about the way we look at the world.  It is about perception.  That is not likely to change whatever I may say. 

The reason I don't take any of your criticisms seriously is because of the 'Zero error' that I ascribe to your view points. The problem is multi fold.

1. Many of you are in the mental stage of adolescence. (Please refer to my article on 'Three stages' at my blog site).  This makes many of you habitual skeptics and cynics....full of 'I know it all' self importance. It is a mindset that cannot change at this stage given that many of you people are fairly old.

2. Additionally, many of you have a Zoom-In mind set due to your science training and cultural  environment. This makes your thinking microscopic....full of reductionist and detailed nitpicking....with no total view at all. This is a problem while discussing philosophy and spirituality.

3. Besides the above two, there is also the 'Two boxes syndrome' because of which many of you have two segregated and a bipolar way of reacting to similar issues. You clearly have bias and prejudice in the way you choose to look at certain phenomena.

4. Some of you believe that merely joining together and badgering someone can bring them around. Not likely! That is bullying, not discussion.

But, having said all this, I still enjoy posting here because it also makes me rethink on certain issues....besides having something to do, of course.

So, keep it going folks.  :)

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Where is torridon, I wonder?!  I could hold a conversation with him without the issue getting derailed or ending in name calling.
Good post. There's much in what you say, especially about the immature, adolescent mindset of some posters, who think relentless, non-stop, laboured sarcasm is an argument.
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Maeght

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Re: Religion
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2019, 08:09:05 AM »
Good post. There's much in what you say, especially about the immature, adolescent mindset of some posters, who think relentless, non-stop, laboured sarcasm is an argument.

That's not what Sriram means though.

SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2019, 09:12:59 AM »
That's not what Sriram means though.
I think that the best person to decide what Sriram means is Sriram.
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2019, 09:35:34 AM »
Sriram
I'm sorry you feel bullied and I apologise for any part you think I may have  played in that . It was not my intention .

  However , it does not stop me from calling you out on assertions and misunderstandings on your part and asking you to support claims you make

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2019, 09:42:37 AM »
Good post. There's much in what you say, especially about the immature, adolescent mindset of some posters, who think relentless, non-stop, laboured sarcasm is an argument.
you have missed a historical point Sriram made some time ago about the 'adolescent mind', it wasn't about childish behavior .

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2019, 10:09:28 AM »
Sriram
I'm sorry you feel bullied and I apologise for any part you think I may have  played in that . It was not my intention .

  However , it does not stop me from calling you out on assertions and misunderstandings on your part and asking you to support claims you make


Hi Walter,

Well...you can be pretty rude sometimes  but I find I can still connect with you unlike many others here.  So, no problems there, Walter.

You can of course disagree with anything  I say.   But if an attempt is made to understand my point of view, that would be welcome!  :) 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2019, 10:26:34 AM »
Sriram,

Quote
I am sorry guys but there is nothing for me to demonstrate or provide evidence for. I have nothing more to say than what I have already said multiple times here and in my articles that I link. There is no additional information for me to provide.

If you expect your various claims of objective fact about the world to be taken seriously then you have you have everything to demonstrate or to provide evidence for. Until you do all you have is undefined assertions – essentially white noise – no matter how convinced of them you may be.   

Quote
It is about the way we look at the world.  It is about perception.  That is not likely to change whatever I may say.

Again, no – it will change if and ever you manage to provide some reasoning or evidence that supports you. Until then there’s no reason for it to change, at least not for thinking people. 

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The reason I don't take any of your criticisms seriously is because of the 'Zero error' that I ascribe to your view points. The problem is multi fold.

No, the reason is that you cannot or will not engage with the rebuttals that undo you. Take your blind man analogy mistake for example – why not actually deal with it rather than pretend it hasn’t happened? 

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1. Many of you are in the mental stage of adolescence. (Please refer to my article on 'Three stages' at my blog site).  This makes many of you habitual skeptics and cynics....full of 'I know it all' self importance. It is a mindset that cannot change at this stage given that many of you people are fairly old.

Insulting your interlocutors won’t help you. Scepticism is the default position for any thinking person because, without it, any claim about anything would be accepted – “spirituality” and leprechauns alike. That’s why the burden of proof concept matters – if you make a claim you expect to be taken seriously, then it’s your job to explain why anyone should do so. Just asserting some of us to lack the magic properties that you have decided you have to grasp these things just makes you look foolish.   

Quote
2. Additionally, many of you have a Zoom-In mind set due to your science training and cultural  environment. This makes your thinking microscopic....full of reductionist and detailed nitpicking....with no total view at all. This is a problem while discussing philosophy and spirituality.

Which is another of your posts full of mistakes in reasoning. It’s not “microscopic thinking” to reason your way to, say, aerodynamics creating lift rather than angels doing it. Again, insulting those with better reasoning ability than your own does you no credit here.   

Quote
3. Besides the above two, there is also the 'Two boxes syndrome' because of which many of you have two segregated and a bipolar way of reacting to similar issues. You clearly have bias and prejudice in the way you choose to look at certain phenomena.

“Bipolar” is a medical term, and it’s particularly scummy of you to use it as an insult. There’s only a “bias and prejudice” inasmuch as mindless, content free woo won’t be accepted as true just on someone’s say so. You have the same bias and prejudice in respect of the mindless and content free woo of others, which is why you reject my assertions about, say, leprechauns. If you want to persist with your “two boxes” analogy, then you have to label the first one “reason-based beliefs” and the second “other beliefs”.     

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4. Some of you believe that merely joining together and badgering someone can bring them around. Not likely! That is bullying, not discussion.

Playing the persecution card won’t help you either. No-one badgers you – rather you’re given clear and cogent explanation when you go wrong, which you then ignore in favour of scattering insults as you make good your escape. This dishonesty does you no credit.     

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But, having said all this, I still enjoy posting here because it also makes me rethink on certain issues....besides having something to do, of course.

If you claim to “rethink” (or even to think at all for that matter) why not finally show some evidence of it here?

Quote
So, keep it going folks.   

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Where is torridon, I wonder?!  I could hold a conversation with him without the issue getting derailed or ending in name calling.

Name calling like “Many of you are in the mental stage of adolescence”, “thinking microscopic”, “bipolar” etc you mean?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2019, 10:47:14 AM »
Walter,

Quote
I'm sorry you feel bullied and I apologise for any part you think I may have  played in that . It was not my intention .

  However , it does not stop me from calling you out on assertions and misunderstandings on your part and asking you to support claims you make

To be clear, no-one bullies Sriram. It's a card he plays in response to rebuttals he doesn't like but cannot or will not address. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2019, 10:50:22 AM »



I have now linked my article on 'Three Stages' to my earlier post, for those who may be interested.