Author Topic: Religion  (Read 17606 times)

Enki

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Re: Religion
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2019, 11:00:09 AM »
Sriram,

It would really be helpful in discussions like these if you could try to keep your ego in check and practise what you preach. To scatter your responses with this strange air of superiority by seeking to belittle those who disagree with you with such comments as Blue has made reference to, seems to show a certain lack of control on your part. Wouldn't it be far more constructive to respond to points that are made, giving reasons and evidence for your conclusions, and attempting to limit your personal bias in favour of a more encompassing and more tolerant approach?

People still might not agree with you, but at least you would be illustrating the approach  which you consider to be important instead of one which has all the hallmarks of retiring into your shell and attempting to fire off broadsides against those who disagree with you.
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2019, 01:17:29 PM »
I have said many times that it is not about  more information....it is about perception.  I cannot make you change it.
Yes you can. You need to provide evidence that the things you say are true. Then I will change my perception.

On second thoughts, if you have no evidence, then it is true that you can't change my perception, however, it's not my fault that you have no evidence for your ideas. Stop blaming me.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religion
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2019, 01:52:13 PM »
Yes you can. You need to provide evidence that the things you say are true. Then I will change my perception.

On second thoughts, if you have no evidence, then it is true that you can't change my perception, however, it's not my fault that you have no evidence for your ideas. Stop blaming me.
Spot on

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2019, 02:02:05 PM »
jeremy,

Quote
Yes you can. You need to provide evidence that the things you say are true. Then I will change my perception.

On second thoughts, if you have no evidence, then it is true that you can't change my perception, however, it's not my fault that you have no evidence for your ideas. Stop blaming me.

I explained this to him in Reply 72 ("Again, no – it will change if and ever you manage to provide some reasoning or evidence that supports you. Until then there’s no reason for it to change, at least not for thinking people.").

He seems to think that "perception" has epistemological force, apparently oblivious to the problem that you can perceive anything at all, whether real or imaginary. What matters is whether or not the object of the perception can be validated. He complains that the tools of reason and evidence are too "microscopic" etc for the job, but is unable to suggest what other method should be used instead.       
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2019, 02:25:16 PM »

No!

Perception is like a fundamental program. That is the means by which information will be processed.  Depending on ones perception, information will be processed accordingly.    For example, if a person beliefs in a particular deity, that is the way the mind will work regardless of the evidence. Some people believe that the devil plants fossils. That is programming or perception regardless of the information.

Similarly, some people have a materialistic perception...a mindset.  It is a form of programming that will not change whatever the  evidence. All evidence will be seen only from that angle...and will be justified or rationalized accordingly.   

Roses

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Re: Religion
« Reply #80 on: May 22, 2019, 02:28:45 PM »
No!

Perception is like a fundamental program. That is the means by which information will be processed.  Depending on ones perception, information will be processed accordingly.    For example, if a person beliefs in a particular deity, that is the way the mind will work regardless of the evidence. Some people believe that the devil plants fossils. That is programming or perception regardless of the information.

Similarly, some people have a materialistic perception...a mindset.  It is a form of programming that will not change whatever the  evidence. All evidence will be seen only from that angle...and will be justified or rationalized accordingly.   


You have no evidence to support your perception, is what you are saying, and with which I agree.
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ippy

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Re: Religion
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2019, 03:02:00 PM »
No!

Perception is like a fundamental program. That is the means by which information will be processed.  Depending on ones perception, information will be processed accordingly.    For example, if a person beliefs in a particular deity, that is the way the mind will work regardless of the evidence. Some people believe that the devil plants fossils. That is programming or perception regardless of the information.

Similarly, some people have a materialistic perception...a mindset.  It is a form of programming that will not change whatever the  evidence. All evidence will be seen only from that angle...and will be justified or rationalized accordingly.   

Sriram just for a moment go have a read of a few pages of the Searching for God thread on this forum, you're presenting all of the so similar assertions that A B does, he seems to think he can work quite functionally without evidence too.

I notice you're not quoting anything from your science mag these days, have they cut out, stopped printing the horoscopes?   

Cheers ippy

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2019, 03:03:39 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
No!

Perception is like a fundamental program. That is the means by which information will be processed.  Depending on ones perception, information will be processed accordingly.    For example, if a person beliefs in a particular deity, that is the way the mind will work regardless of the evidence. Some people believe that the devil plants fossils. That is programming or perception regardless of the information.

Similarly, some people have a materialistic perception...a mindset.  It is a form of programming that will not change whatever the  evidence. All evidence will be seen only from that angle...and will be justified or rationalized accordingly.

Dear God but you struggle. I can line up ten people before breakfast, each of whom “perceive” something different to be true – the Christian god for the first one, Allah for the second, Poseidon for the third, Colin the Laird of Leprechaunland for the fourth etc.

A “materialistic mindset” as you put it isn’t though a perception of anything – it’s a method to investigate the validity or otherwise of the perceptions that people do have, but that’s all.   

Materialism doesn’t even claim to falsify the perceptions it can’t address. Rather it just says, “perceptions A, B and C are justified by this method, but perceptions D, E and F are not”. That’s not to say that D is not true (leprechauns say), but it is to say that this method provides no reason to think that it is. And your problem when you perceive D, E or F to be true nonetheless is that you offer no other means to test the claim. The various claims of non-naturalistic fact you make are therefore precisely as (in)valid as any others that fall outwith the purview of materialism.

This isn’t hard to grasp if only you’d try. Really it isn’t. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 04:07:02 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2019, 04:53:44 PM »
blue & jeremyp

the only people who see fairies at the bottom of the garden are those who really really REALLY  believe . It's that simple !

SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2019, 04:57:57 PM »
blue & jeremyp

the only people who see fairies at the bottom of the garden are those who really really REALLY  believe . It's that simple !
One of my schools had playing fields that backed on to one of the premises of Fairey Engineering. We had Faireys at the bottom of the garden.
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2019, 05:38:35 PM »
One of my schools had playing fields that backed on to one of the premises of Fairey Engineering. We had Faireys at the bottom of the garden.
would that be the world famous Aircraft manufacturer

Oddly enough I was having a good look round a FAIREY GANNET aircraft in a museum earlier today

SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2019, 06:48:20 PM »
would that be the world famous Aircraft manufacturer

Oddly enough I was having a good look round a FAIREY GANNET aircraft in a museum earlier today
Yes. In Stockport.
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2019, 07:06:35 PM »
Yes. In Stockport.
There's quite a lot of info on the net about it if you're interested

jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2019, 07:19:36 PM »
No!

Perception is like a fundamental program. That is the means by which information will be processed.  Depending on ones perception, information will be processed accordingly.    For example, if a person beliefs in a particular deity, that is the way the mind will work regardless of the evidence. Some people believe that the devil plants fossils. That is programming or perception regardless of the information.

Similarly, some people have a materialistic perception...a mindset.  It is a form of programming that will not change whatever the  evidence. All evidence will be seen only from that angle...and will be justified or rationalized accordingly.   
As I said before, it’s not my problem if you do not have the evidence to convince me that you are right, it’s your problem. Stop blaming me for the shortcomings in your arguments.
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2019, 07:21:57 PM »
One of my schools had playing fields that backed on to one of the premises of Fairey Engineering. We had Faireys at the bottom of the garden.
Fireflies, Gannets or Swordfish?
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2019, 07:23:17 PM »
would that be the world famous Aircraft manufacturer

Oddly enough I was having a good look round a FAIREY GANNET aircraft in a museum earlier today
Which museum? I saw one recently at one near York, whose name escapes me.
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SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2019, 07:32:01 PM »
Fireflies, Gannets or Swordfish?
Dunno. Whatever they made in Heaton Chapel.
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2019, 07:41:08 PM »
Dunno. Whatever they made in Heaton Chapel.
Biplanes or monoplanes?
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2019, 09:53:53 PM »
Which museum? I saw one recently at one near York, whose name escapes me.
yes that's the one
The Yorkshire Air Museum at ELvington   Well worth a visit.

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2019, 10:06:38 PM »
Dunno. Whatever they made in Heaton Chapel.

I'm overwhelmed by your enthusiasm  ::)

Maeght

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Re: Religion
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2019, 10:12:26 PM »
I think that the best person to decide what Sriram means is Sriram.

He's explained what he means by the adolescent mind state before and it wasn't about childish posts.

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2019, 10:19:49 PM »
Which museum? I saw one recently at one near York, whose name escapes me.
jeremyp
here is a nice example

https://youtu.be/BC8vaHEI6gY

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2019, 05:35:06 AM »
As I said before, it’s not my problem if you do not have the evidence to convince me that you are right, it’s your problem. Stop blaming me for the shortcomings in your arguments.



 :D There you go again! You don't get it at all...do you?!

If you keep looking through a microscope...how can I show you the stars?!!  The evidence is there....its just that you can't see it!!

Get your head away from the microscope and then you can see the evidence. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:40:48 AM by Sriram »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Religion
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2019, 08:21:01 AM »


 :D There you go again! You don't get it at all...do you?!

If you keep looking through a microscope...how can I show you the stars?!!  The evidence is there....its just that you can't see it!!

Get your head away from the microscope and then you can see the evidence.

You ever thought you might be missing the evidence because you aren't looking through the microscope?

BTW I'm not being serious here. I just think your analogy is weak and insulting.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2019, 08:48:39 AM »
You ever thought you might be missing the evidence because you aren't looking through the microscope?

BTW I'm not being serious here. I just think your analogy is weak and insulting.


I have looked through the  microscope too at various times in my life. That is one method of investigation but can't be used everywhere. I am not against any discoveries of science. I am surprised you haven't realized that. I am not questioning science at all! 

I am only saying that science has its place while the world is much bigger and requires us to look outside of the microscope too.   

And...'insulting'....really!!  Ha...Ha!   You seem to have missed all the insults directed at me.... and others...by the atheist bunch!   ;)