Author Topic: Religion  (Read 17580 times)

Roses

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Re: Religion
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2019, 08:31:56 AM »

?????? What?

I think that's what I said.  ::)


Your posts are not always easy to understand.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2019, 09:03:03 AM »
Sriram,

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Unlikely!

!

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It is certainly possible that our individual interpretations are imaginary and culture related. But the basic experience and its after effects are not imaginary.  They are real and are common across the world.

You fundamentally misunderstand still. “The basic experience” is a story, a narrative. I might have a perception later today that I’ve been visited by Colin, the grand Nabob of the leprechauns. There would though various possible explanations for that perception: Colin did indeed visit; I had a brief hallucinatory episode; I mistook a green bin bag that flew past my window for Colin etc. In other words, there is no “basic experience” – just (countless) basic perceptions of experiences. Identifying what an experience actually is is a very different matter – something that’s been explained to you several times, but you always ignore.

And there (again) is your problem. You make various assertions of fact, and complain that when they can’t be verified with reason or evidence the fault is with the use of reason and evidence (“microscopic thinking”) rather than with your inability to justify your claims. It’s led you to a curious mix of arrogance and ignorance that does you no credit.   
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2019, 10:43:30 AM »


You need to have a WiFi and the required software. You also need to switch them on and then click on the icon. Only then you even know that such a thing as the internet actually exists. Till then it does not exist for you.

Snooping around inside the hardware will not show you what the internet is.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2019, 10:51:48 AM »
Sriram,

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You need to have a WiFi and the required software. You also need to switch them on and then click on the icon. Only then you even know that such a thing as the internet actually exists. Till then it does not exist for you.

Snooping around inside the hardware will not show you what the internet is.

So, yet again, what "WiFI and software" do you propose people use to investigate your claims of fact if you think reason and evidence aren't up to the job?

You've also just repeated your blind man analogy mistake by the way - pick something that's agreed to be real then point out that some people can't identify it. This'll be lost on you, but it's a fallacy called begging the question ("petitio principii"). 

Oh, and I see that you've just ignored your mistake of conflating an experience with the perception of it. Funny that.
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2019, 11:24:24 AM »

You need to have a WiFi and the required software. You also need to switch them on and then click on the icon. Only then you even know that such a thing as the internet actually exists. Till then it does not exist for you.

Snooping around inside the hardware will not show you what the internet is.
Sriram

Instead of receiving this constant battering why don't you just admit it's an emotional thing , something you strongly believe rather than have 'evidence' for . That way , I for one would accept it's just a very strong feeling you have .You might then be able to share your experiences with us on the basis we both know it's not real but might be enjoyable to both parties as a kind of thought experiment .

We might both learn something !

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2019, 01:29:21 PM »
Sriram

Instead of receiving this constant battering why don't you just admit it's an emotional thing , something you strongly believe rather than have 'evidence' for . That way , I for one would accept it's just a very strong feeling you have .You might then be able to share your experiences with us on the basis we both know it's not real but might be enjoyable to both parties as a kind of thought experiment .

We might both learn something !


And why would I admit to anything like that?!!    :D

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2019, 01:34:33 PM »
Sriram,

So, yet again, what "WiFI and software" do you propose people use to investigate your claims of fact if you think reason and evidence aren't up to the job?

You've also just repeated your blind man analogy mistake by the way - pick something that's agreed to be real then point out that some people can't identify it. This'll be lost on you, but it's a fallacy called begging the question ("petitio principii"). 

Oh, and I see that you've just ignored your mistake of conflating an experience with the perception of it. Funny that.



Don't be silly Blue...!    How can I pick something that is 'admitted to be real'...when you can't 'admit' to it? 

You are getting back to the 'show me it is real through my microscope and then I will admit to it'.     "There is a hole in my bucket  dear Eliza.......'

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2019, 01:39:43 PM »

And why would I admit to anything like that?!!    :D
more to the point , why wouldn't you ?

please show your reasoning and workings , thanks .

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2019, 01:43:26 PM »



Just read my post 131 above......

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2019, 04:57:17 PM »


Just read my post 131 above......
but from what I can determine ,you don't even have a bucket  ::)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #135 on: May 24, 2019, 05:47:28 PM »
Sriram,

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And why would I admit to anything like that?!!    :D

Becasue it's true.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #136 on: May 24, 2019, 05:55:53 PM »
Sriram,

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Don't be silly Blue...!    How can I pick something that is 'admitted to be real'...when you can't 'admit' to it? 

You are getting back to the 'show me it is real through my microscope and then I will admit to it'.     "There is a hole in my bucket  dear Eliza.......'

It's hard to know whether you can't grasp even a simple argument or you're wilfully misrepresenting the argument that undoes you. No-one said "admitted" - that's just you misquoting me. What I actually said was agreed. You pick phenomena we agree to be real - light and the internet respectively - and then say that some people lack the equipment to see them. Well, yes. That though tells you nothing about whether or not phenomena that only you think to be real are real because the rest of us have no means to validate them.

Try to focus now - really, really try: if you think the tools of reason and evidence are too "microscopic" to see the various things you believe in that the rest of can't see, WHAT METHOD TO INVESTIGATE YOUR CLAIMS WOULD YOU PROPOSE INSTEAD?

Surely "you just have to take my word for it" isn't all you have is it? Is it?

   
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:39:54 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #137 on: May 25, 2019, 05:55:14 AM »
Sriram,

It's hard to know whether you can't grasp even a simple argument or you're wilfully misrepresenting the argument that undoes you. No-one said "admitted" - that's just you misquoting me. What I actually said was agreed. You pick phenomena we agree to be real - light and the internet respectively - and then say that some people lack the equipment to see them. Well, yes. That though tells you nothing about whether or not phenomena that only you think to be real are real because the rest of us have no means to validate them.

Try to focus now - really, really try: if you think the tools of reason and evidence are too "microscopic" to see the various things you believe in that the rest of can't see, WHAT METHOD TO INVESTIGATE YOUR CLAIMS WOULD YOU PROPOSE INSTEAD?

Surely "you just have to take my word for it" isn't all you have is it? Is it?

   


Well...its quite simple really...Blue!  Just try to get the microscopes off your eyes. That is the only way to see things outside the microscopic world. There is no other way.

Continuing to insist that someone should provide evidence of the bigger realities in a microscopic way is ridiculous.  It can't be done.

As I keep telling you, it is about perception not about information.  I have no additional information to provide you that you don't already have. You just need to get the microscopes off and look at the same things. You will see them differently!

Get it?!

Now...how does one get the microscopes off?  That is easier said than done. Decades of microscopic training and cultural pressure cannot be undone easily. But you can try some of the following.

1. For a start, try to have some faith in other people who accept mystical realities. Instead of adopting a superior 'nose in the air' attitude towards believers, try to respect at least some of their views. You can start with people who you would otherwise respect for their intelligence and honesty but who have a different view on such matters. Quit brushing them off as soon as they disagree with you on such things.   While it requires you to keep your large ego under check, it could surely help somewhat in changing your perception. 

Quit being an adolescent, in other words.

2. Read some books on Yoga, Vedanta etc. instead of snickering at them. Try to be humble and accept that the world could contain many mysteries that are beyond your perception.

3. Practice some Yoga, meditations so that your well entrenched perceptions and ideas get a good shake up. They might loosen their hold and after that it might be easier to take a peek outside the microscope.

That is all I can say. (Now don't start off with the 'provide me evidence' routine) 




« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 06:47:30 AM by Sriram »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Religion
« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2019, 07:55:05 AM »
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For a start, try to have some faith in other people who accept mystical realities

I can have faith in people who accept mystical realities. I can't have faith in mystical realities.

You are asking me to believe that my friend Trevor is helped by his crystals that sit on his hearth at home. I don't believe that. In mostly every other way I believe him but I can't make the leap to nonsense his crystals require.
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2019, 09:31:19 AM »

Well...its quite simple really...Blue!  Just try to get the microscopes off your eyes. That is the only way to see things outside the microscopic world. There is no other way.

Continuing to insist that someone should provide evidence of the bigger realities in a microscopic way is ridiculous.  It can't be done.

As I keep telling you, it is about perception not about information.  I have no additional information to provide you that you don't already have. You just need to get the microscopes off and look at the same things. You will see them differently!

Get it?!

Now...how does one get the microscopes off?  That is easier said than done. Decades of microscopic training and cultural pressure cannot be undone easily. But you can try some of the following.

1. For a start, try to have some faith in other people who accept mystical realities. Instead of adopting a superior 'nose in the air' attitude towards believers, try to respect at least some of their views. You can start with people who you would otherwise respect for their intelligence and honesty but who have a different view on such matters. Quit brushing them off as soon as they disagree with you on such things.   While it requires you to keep your large ego under check, it could surely help somewhat in changing your perception. 

Quit being an adolescent, in other words.

2. Read some books on Yoga, Vedanta etc. instead of snickering at them. Try to be humble and accept that the world could contain many mysteries that are beyond your perception.

3. Practice some Yoga, meditations so that your well entrenched perceptions and ideas get a good shake up. They might loosen their hold and after that it might be easier to take a peek outside the microscope.

That is all I can say. (Now don't start off with the 'provide me evidence' routine)

Stop blaming us for your shortcomings. It’s not our fault you can’t provide convincing evidence for your point of view.

FYI a microscope is an instrument that helps us understand the world better. When you say stop using one, I hear you arguing that ignorance is better than knowledge. That’s just bullshit.
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2019, 10:51:37 AM »
Sriram

I was prepared to give you a chance and was hopeful you would come up with a basis for real discussion but you've just blown it .

Try looking down a microscope now and then !

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2019, 11:39:42 AM »
Sriram,

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Well...its quite simple really...Blue!

Excellent. So you’re finally going to address your blind man analogy mistake are you? Good – here we go then…

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Just try to get the microscopes off your eyes. That is the only way to see things outside the microscopic world. There is no other way.

Aw no – you’ve blown it again Say it ain’t so! Do I really have to explain this to you again? Really though? Slooooowly now….the only “microscope” here is reason and evidence. That’s what some of us bring to the claims of fact you make because that’s only only method of investigation we have. And when that fails – as it always does – then it’s your job to provide an alternative method to investigate them.
   
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Continuing to insist that someone should provide evidence of the bigger realities in a microscopic way is ridiculous.  It can't be done.

It’s claims of bigger realities, not bigger realities and if you have no evidence for these claims why should anyone think you to be right? I can make lots of claims about lots of things for which I have no evidence either – would you accept them as true on the same basis that you expect me to accept as true your evidence-free assertions? Why not?

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As I keep telling you, it is about perception not about information.  I have no additional information to provide you that you don't already have. You just need to get the microscopes off and look at the same things. You will see them differently!

I’ve dealt with your microscope mistake already (several times in fact), and your problem with “perception” is that your personal perceptions about anything are no more epistemically useful than my perceptions about leprechauns. You can perceive anything you like, but unless you can find some way to anchor those perceptions to reality, that’s all they are - perceptions.   

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Get it?!

Yes. Why don’t you?

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Now...how does one get the microscopes off?  That is easier said than done. Decades of microscopic training and cultural pressure cannot be undone easily. But you can try some of the following.

Easy – just abandon reason and evidence and use instead…er….well, what exactly?

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1. For a start, try to have some faith in other people who accept mystical realities. Instead of adopting a superior 'nose in the air' attitude towards believers, try to respect at least some of their views. You can start with people who you would otherwise respect for their intelligence and honesty but who have a different view on such matters. Quit brushing them off as soon as they disagree with you on such things.   While it requires you to keep your large ego under check, it could surely help somewhat in changing your perception.

I'm happy to respect anyone’s right to believe anything, but why on earth would I respect the content of their beliefs when they offer no means to investigate or validate them? You know this to be true already though don’t you – you respect my right to believe in leprechauns, but you have no respect at all for the belief itself.

Oh, and you’re on awful thin ice if you want to claim intelligence and honesty. The first is invalidated by the blogs you link to that are riddled with logical mistakes from beginning to end; the latter is invalidated by your habit of making errors here, then replying with insults and running away.     

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Quit being an adolescent, in other words.

QED

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2. Read some books on Yoga, Vedanta etc. instead of snickering at them. Try to be humble and accept that the world could contain many mysteries that are beyond your perception.

If they’re “beyond our perception” why should anyone think that you alone actually do perceive them?

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3. Practice some Yoga, meditations so that your well entrenched perceptions and ideas get a good shake up. They might loosen their hold and after that it might be easier to take a peek outside the microscope.

I could practice these things for ever and a day. I might even arrive at various claims of objective fact about the world if I did. Trouble is, that’s all they’d be - claims. Until and unless you ever, ever provide some means to justify your claims though that’s all you have. Let’s be kind and call them guesses rather than woo shall we – it’s a useful label for the claims of fact you make about whatever and the claims of fact I make about leprechauns. They’re epistemically identical – ie, worthless.     

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That is all I can say. (Now don't start off with the 'provide me evidence' routine)

Fine. Guesses it is then.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 12:53:48 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Religion
« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2019, 11:50:29 AM »
Sriram The notion that you, a most arrogant and self-aggrandising poster have the gall to suggest that others should be humble is completely and appallingly objectionable in my opinion. ,
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2019, 11:52:17 AM »
Susan,

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Sriram The notion that you, a most arrogant and self-aggrandising poster have the gall to suggest that others should be humble is completely and appallingly objectionable in my opinion. ,

Yes, it's astonishing really.
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #144 on: May 26, 2019, 05:02:16 AM »

Ok...this is boring!   Explaining 'light' to 'blind people' clearly doesn't work.

Cheers.

Sriram
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 05:37:39 AM by Sriram »

Roses

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Re: Religion
« Reply #145 on: May 26, 2019, 08:39:32 AM »
Ok...this is boring!   Explaining 'light' to 'blind people' clearly doesn't work.

Cheers.

Sriram

It is very sad that you can't see how silly you are being, your responses don't do you any favours. ::)
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Udayana

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Re: Religion
« Reply #146 on: May 26, 2019, 08:44:07 AM »
Ok...this is boring!   Explaining 'light' to 'blind people' clearly doesn't work.

Cheers.

Sriram

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Udayana

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Re: Religion
« Reply #147 on: May 26, 2019, 08:48:37 AM »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #148 on: May 26, 2019, 09:56:30 AM »
Sriram,

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Ok...this is boring!   Explaining 'light' to 'blind people' clearly doesn't work.

So in Reply 141 I took the time to demolish your various mistakes, only for you to ignore all of it and to repeat the initial one.

What does that say about you do you think?
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Udayana

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Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now