Author Topic: Religion  (Read 17507 times)

Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #150 on: May 26, 2019, 11:02:01 AM »
Ok...this is boring!
Cheers.

Sriram
too right

brick wall . heads . banging !  at some point one has to stop

Enki

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Re: Religion
« Reply #151 on: May 26, 2019, 11:48:45 AM »
Ok...this is boring!   Explaining 'light' to 'blind people' clearly doesn't work.

Cheers.

Sriram

Possible translation:

Quote
Oh...I find it really hard to answer any of the points made against me! Convincing people that I'm right just by telling them that they just can't see that I am right, clearly doesn't work.

 :)
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #152 on: May 26, 2019, 12:24:06 PM »
Kent Cullers


Well..yes...of course!   There are some visionaries and broad minded people who can 'see' beyond their sensory limitations.  But not many blind  people can do that.

Similarly there are few scientists and science enthusiasts who can 'see' beyond their microscopic mindset and are spiritualists also.  But alas.......not many!  :(

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #153 on: May 26, 2019, 12:53:39 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
Well..yes...of course!   There are some visionaries and broad minded people who can 'see' beyond their sensory limitations.  But not many blind  people can do that.

Similarly there are few scientists and science enthusiasts who can 'see' beyond their microscopic mindset and are spiritualists also.  But alas.......not many!  :(

And again you fail utterly to suggest any reason at all to think that your various claims of "the spiritual" are correct. Fun as it may be reading your various guesses about this, why would you not be concerned to find a reason for your guesses about the spiritual to be taken more seriously than my guesses about leprechauns?     
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 02:21:48 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #154 on: May 26, 2019, 02:31:56 PM »

Well..yes...of course!   There are some visionaries and broad minded people who can 'see' beyond their sensory limitations.  But not many blind  people can do that.

Similarly there are few scientists and science enthusiasts who can 'see' beyond their microscopic mindset and are spiritualists also.  But alas.......not many!  :(
Kent Cullers can't see beyond his sensory limitations. He has no vision but he can hear and touch and smell. There's no magic of the sort you seem to think exists involved.

And once again, a microscope enhances our perception of the world, not limits it. That you keep spouting this bullshit looks like evidence of dishonesty to me.
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #155 on: May 26, 2019, 02:41:07 PM »
Kent Cullers can't see beyond his sensory limitations. He has no vision but he can hear and touch and smell. There's no magic of the sort you seem to think exists involved.

And once again, a microscope enhances our perception of the world, not limits it. That you keep spouting this bullshit looks like evidence of dishonesty to me.


I don't know why this simple idea is so difficult to understand.   A microscope enhances certain perceptions, but it also has its limitations. It can't be used to look at the stars. 

What I am talking about is that certain mindsets and mental limitations can prevent us from 'seeing' or understanding certain phenomena. We need to change our perceptions if we want to access certain ideas.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #156 on: May 26, 2019, 03:02:23 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
I don't know why this simple idea is so difficult to understand.   A microscope enhances certain perceptions, but it also has its limitations. It can't be used to look at the stars.

It might be simple but it's also wrong because you still make the same basic mistake with the analogy – you just assume your “stars” are real, and that it’s the fault of the “microscopic” thinkers that they don’t agree with you. If you want to demonstrate your claims of the “spiritual” to be any better than guessing then you need (finally) to propose a method to do it.     

Quote
What I am talking about is that certain mindsets and mental limitations can prevent us from 'seeing' or understanding certain phenomena. We need to change our perceptions if we want to access certain ideas.

They probably can, but that takes you not one jot of a step of an iota toward demonstrating these phenomena to be real in the first place.

That’s your problem. Why not address it? 
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #157 on: May 26, 2019, 03:11:22 PM »



Gosh...Blue. This is terrible!!  How the heck can I provide evidence to you of the stars in the sky when your head is stuck in the microscope?!  Get your head out and you can see for yourself.   

Is this so difficult?!



bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #158 on: May 26, 2019, 03:15:11 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
Gosh...Blue. This is terrible!!  How the heck can I provide evidence to you of the stars in the sky when your head is stuck in the microscope?!  Get your head out and you can see for yourself.   

Is this so difficult?!

Yes, because it's wrong. You can blame others for lacking your magic insight as much as you like, but that's a problem for you rather than for those of us who require reason and evidence before taking claims seriously. If you think otherwise, on what basis would you reject my claim of leprechauns that I assert you lack the magic insight to see too?
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Walter

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Re: Religion
« Reply #159 on: May 26, 2019, 03:21:18 PM »


Gosh...Blue. This is terrible!!  How the heck can I provide evidence to you of the stars in the sky when your head is stuck in the microscope?!  Get your head out and you can see for yourself.   

Is this so difficult?!
Sriram

just have a quick look inside your brain to see if the switch marked REASON has been turned off .

If so flick it back on again , its not that difficult . ::)

Enki

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Re: Religion
« Reply #160 on: May 26, 2019, 04:39:54 PM »

I don't know why this simple idea is so difficult to understand.   A microscope enhances certain perceptions, but it also has its limitations. It can't be used to look at the stars. 

What I am talking about is that certain mindsets and mental limitations can prevent us from 'seeing' or understanding certain phenomena. We need to change our perceptions if we want to access certain ideas.

Neither a microscope nor a telescope enhance or develop the idea any spiritual reality at all. They are both concerned with and enhance our knowledge of the natural world. They both have their limitations. That is why your attempt to contrast the two is such a poor analogy.

What you seem to be concerned with is the idea that we are a victim of a certain mindset which limits us from being spiritualists(in the philosophical sense). That is a fair point and one that could be true but, alternatively, one which fails to deal with the very real proposition that some of us have not been curtailed by such a mindset but have come to our views in full knowledge and realization of the mindset which accepts the reality of a spiritual world. It is not that we have necessarily utterly rejected that view but find little to commend it either from a rational and evidential position, but, also, and speaking purely for myself here, from an emotional and experiential position. That is not to say such a spiritual reality does not exist, but surely you must accept that simply suggesting that such a thing exists if only we had the perception to see it, is fraught with problems. What if your perceptions are simply a result of your mindset? what if they are plain wrong? How can we tell? You dismiss the idea of evidence yet you put nothing in its place, so how can we judge? And then you simply label us as 'adolescents' because we do not agree with what you say. Assuming that you wish people to be sympathetic to your point of view I would suggest that that is not the way to 'win friends and influence people'.

Finally you speak of 'understanding certain phenomena'. This may or may not be true, but I have to say your understanding of evolutionary theory leaves a lot to be desired, and your emphasis on the importance and significance of NDEs is at the very least contested.

Perhaps, if you desire humility in others, then it would be a wise approach to use a little humilty also. And you could start by trying to understand why so many people on this forum have difficulty, not in understanding your ideas, but in accepting them.
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Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #161 on: May 26, 2019, 05:35:43 PM »

Quote.....'That is a fair point and one that could be true.....'

Well..well..well!  There is a glimmer of hope here then...finally!

So, you got the point I have been making. Certain mindsets limit our perceptions and understanding.  As long as we retain those mindsets (microscopic), we will never understand because our mindsets will not allow us to see it. Once we change our mindset, understanding is automatic.

Not bad...enki!  Late, but you got there. :)

At least you aren't saying....'first show me evidence of the stars and then I will bother to look up at the sky'... as some others are saying.

PS: who said that microscopes and telescopes enhance spiritual reality?

jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #162 on: May 26, 2019, 05:49:40 PM »

I don't know why this simple idea is so difficult to understand.
It's not difficult to understand, it's just that it is bollocks.

Quote
A microscope enhances certain perceptions, but it also has its limitations. It can't be used to look at the stars. 
Why would you want to use a microscope to look at the stars? That would be stupid. Use a telescope instead.

Note however, if you are looking through a microscope and I say "hey, there are giant balls of gas in the sky that emit light" and you say "I can't see them through this microscope, I don't say "you are blinkered by your perception", I say, "here, try this telescope instead".

What is your equivalent to a telescope?

Quote
What I am talking about is that certain mindsets and mental limitations can prevent us from 'seeing' or understanding certain phenomena. We need to change our perceptions if we want to access certain ideas.

My mindset is "show me the evidence". Why are you surprised that, when you consistently fail to provide any evidence, I don't believe you?
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jeremyp

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Re: Religion
« Reply #163 on: May 26, 2019, 05:52:48 PM »


Gosh...Blue. This is terrible!!  How the heck can I provide evidence to you of the stars in the sky when your head is stuck in the microscope?!  Get your head out and you can see for yourself.   

Is this so difficult?!

Give him the right tool for the job and I'm sure Blue will use it. You are dissembling because you know there is no tool. Your ideas are just fantasy. No tool will help us verify your fantasies.
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Enki

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Re: Religion
« Reply #164 on: May 26, 2019, 06:28:05 PM »
Quote.....'That is a fair point and one that could be true.....'

Well..well..well!  There is a glimmer of hope here then...finally!

So, you got the point I have been making. Certain mindsets limit our perceptions and understanding.  As long as we retain those mindsets (microscopic), we will never understand because our mindsets will not allow us to see it. Once we change our mindset, understanding is automatic.

Not bad...enki!  Late, but you got there. :)

At least you aren't saying....'first show me evidence of the stars and then I will bother to look up at the sky'... as some others are saying.

PS: who said that microscopes and telescopes enhance spiritual reality?

Nothing's changed Sriram. I have always accepted the possibility of a spiritual dimension, but all it remains is a possibility  and no more unless and until you can give reason and evidence to support that this spiritual dimension actually exists. That's always been my position.

I notice you don't take note of the points I make, seemingly preferring to claim some sort of victory. Why do you do that? Is it some sort of massaging of your ego perhaps?

About the telescope/microscope analogy, both add to our knowledge of the natural world, but in different areas. Just not a good analogy, that's all.
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Maeght

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Re: Religion
« Reply #165 on: May 26, 2019, 09:22:16 PM »
Quote.....'That is a fair point and one that could be true.....'

Well..well..well!  There is a glimmer of hope here then...finally!

So, you got the point I have been making. Certain mindsets limit our perceptions and understanding.  As long as we retain those mindsets (microscopic), we will never understand because our mindsets will not allow us to see it. Once we change our mindset, understanding is automatic.

Not bad...enki!  Late, but you got there. :)

At least you aren't saying....'first show me evidence of the stars and then I will bother to look up at the sky'... as some others are saying.

PS: who said that microscopes and telescopes enhance spiritual reality?

I think you need to drop your microscope analogy Sriram. You have a mindset to, a set of filters you view the world through. Your filters and mindset or not superior or more developed than anyone elses, they are just different based on your 'nature and nurture'. If you accept that it would certainly help when it came to discussing phenomena and experiences.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 10:46:05 PM by Maeght »

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #166 on: May 27, 2019, 05:34:30 AM »
Give him the right tool for the job and I'm sure Blue will use it. You are dissembling because you know there is no tool. Your ideas are just fantasy. No tool will help us verify your fantasies.


The 'tool' is a certain state of mind. I can't provide it.

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #167 on: May 27, 2019, 05:40:00 AM »
It's not difficult to understand, it's just that it is bollocks.
Why would you want to use a microscope to look at the stars? That would be stupid. Use a telescope instead.

Note however, if you are looking through a microscope and I say "hey, there are giant balls of gas in the sky that emit light" and you say "I can't see them through this microscope, I don't say "you are blinkered by your perception", I say, "here, try this telescope instead".

What is your equivalent to a telescope?

My mindset is "show me the evidence". Why are you surprised that, when you consistently fail to provide any evidence, I don't believe you?



Yes...I am in fact  saying exactly that....'try the telescope'.  But its not a physical instrument I can buy and provide you. It is a state of mind that you have to generate yourself. Once the microscopic mind recedes, the larger perception may come on automatically.

This requires lot of mental discipline, introspection, stillness of mind and so on. Constantly running the same old 'program' again and again will not help. Change is called for.

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #168 on: May 27, 2019, 05:44:11 AM »
Nothing's changed Sriram. I have always accepted the possibility of a spiritual dimension, but all it remains is a possibility  and no more unless and until you can give reason and evidence to support that this spiritual dimension actually exists. That's always been my position.

I notice you don't take note of the points I make, seemingly preferring to claim some sort of victory. Why do you do that? Is it some sort of massaging of your ego perhaps?

About the telescope/microscope analogy, both add to our knowledge of the natural world, but in different areas. Just not a good analogy, that's all.


You are again making the same mistake. Asking for evidence through your same old perception. That can't be done. Change it and look again.

It is like looking out of a window and seeing trees. Someone else looks out of another window and sees a lake.  You can't insist...'show me evidence of the lake through my window'....and then I will believe.  That can't be done.  You have to take the trouble of looking out of the other window. If not, you can't see it.

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #169 on: May 27, 2019, 05:54:07 AM »
I think you need to drop your microscope analogy Sriram. You have a mindset to, a set of filters you view the world through. Your filters and mindset or not superior or more developed than anyone elses, they are just different based on your 'nature and nurture'. If you accept that it would certainly help when it came to discussing phenomena and experiences.


Yes....everyone has a different mindset depending on ones culture. A Hindu and a Christian have different cultures....but there are meeting points. Mindsets will not be different, only the specifics will be different. 

With science it is different. It is an entirely different 'program' running in the head. It completely changes ones perception and viewpoint. There is no other word for it except 'microscopic'.

Roses

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Re: Religion
« Reply #170 on: May 27, 2019, 08:18:39 AM »

Yes....everyone has a different mindset depending on ones culture. A Hindu and a Christian have different cultures....but there are meeting points. Mindsets will not be different, only the specifics will be different. 

With science it is different. It is an entirely different 'program' running in the head. It completely changes ones perception and viewpoint. There is no other word for it except 'microscopic'.


You say the daftest things! ::)
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Maeght

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Re: Religion
« Reply #171 on: May 27, 2019, 08:27:04 AM »

Yes....everyone has a different mindset depending on ones culture. A Hindu and a Christian have different cultures....but there are meeting points. Mindsets will not be different, only the specifics will be different. 

With science it is different. It is an entirely different 'program' running in the head. It completely changes ones perception and viewpoint. There is no other word for it except 'microscopic'.

Science deals with the things which can be measured and tested. That's what defines it and so it should remain. But this is a different thing from your implication that people who don't see things the way you do are missing evidence because they have a narrow/restricted/limited view. That stance is unhelpful, being somewhat insulting presenting your way as being superior. Drop that, accept that people see things differently and be willing to discuss stuff without resulting to  your inaccurate analogies and somewhat superior tone and discussions might be more fruitful.

Edit: Others need to change their tone though of course for this to happen.

Sriram

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Re: Religion
« Reply #172 on: May 27, 2019, 08:32:27 AM »
Science deals with the things which can be measured and tested. That's what defines it and so it should remain. But this is a different thing from your implication that people who don't see things the way you do are missing evidence because they have a narrow/restricted/limited view. That stance is unhelpful, being somewhat insulting presenting your way as being superior. Drop that, accept that people see things differently and be willing to discuss stuff without resulting to  your inaccurate analogies and somewhat superior tone and discussions might be more fruitful.

Edit: Others need to change their tone though of course for this to happen.


'Science deals with things which can be measured and tested'.   Therein lies its limitations.   

What is there to discuss if I drop my analogy?

SteveH

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Re: Religion
« Reply #173 on: May 27, 2019, 08:42:55 AM »

There is no other word for [science] except 'microscopic'.
Yes, there is: "objective".
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Maeght

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Re: Religion
« Reply #174 on: May 27, 2019, 08:55:37 AM »

'Science deals with things which can be measured and tested'.   Therein lies its limitations.   

What is there to discuss if I drop my analogy?

The word science has a certain Kudos in the modern world. People who want to redefine science do so because they want some of that kudos for their area of interest. Rather they should accept what science is, a method to study things which can be measured and tested, and accept they are doing something different.

I can't believe you're not able to discuss your points without use if your inaccurate analogy.