Religion

[Aruntraveller]

It is like looking out of a window and seeing trees. Someone else looks out of another window and sees a lake.  You can't insist...'show me evidence of the lake through my window'....and then I will believe.  That can't be done.  You have to take the trouble of looking out of the other window. If not, you can't see it.

Again with the rubbish analogy. You are not talking about comparable things. In this analogy, seeing lakes or trees depending on your vantage point is comparable. What you are asking is for us to compare trees with Game of thrones. I only need a window to see trees I need a TV to see GoT.

Now, what is your equivalent to the TV to enable us all to see what you see?

[Udayana]

The word science has a certain Kudos in the modern world. People who want to redefine science do so because they want some of that kudos for their area of interest. Rather they should accept what science is, a method to study things which can be measured and tested, and accept they are doing something different.

I can't believe you're not able to discuss your points without use if your inaccurate analogy.

The analogy is certainly wrong. I think what Sriram means is critical and analytical thinking.

Now, there are other ways of approaching our life experiences, however science allows discussion and agreement on objective aspects of the world. Other ways of thinking do not and cannot come to any practical or useful conclusions on what is "true" or not.

[Udayana]

Again with the rubbish analogy. You are not talking about comparable things. In this analogy, seeing lakes or trees depending on your vantage point is comparable. What you are asking is for us to compare trees with Game of thrones. I only need a window to see trees I need a TV to see GoT.

Now, what is your equivalent to the TV to enable us all to see what you see?

Yeah, he has a TV where he can watch whatever he chooses, while some of us are trying to find a window.

[Walter]

'Science deals with things which can be measured and tested'.   Therein lies its limitations.   

What is there to discuss if I drop my analogy?

Sriram ,

I think I'm starting to get it now . Rather than look at the world with a scientific eye and that entails , you are saying we should look at the world with an artistic eye where things are not precise or require evidence . The world can be what you want it to be , no evidence required and that can lead you to all kinds of experiences . (but they're not real)

[Sriram]

The word science has a certain Kudos in the modern world. People who want to redefine science do so because they want some of that kudos for their area of interest. Rather they should accept what science is, a method to study things which can be measured and tested, and accept they are doing something different.

I can't believe you're not able to discuss your points without use if your inaccurate analogy.

Its not because I want to redefine science.  Its because you and others are bringing in science into matters where you require more than a microscopic mind.  I did not ask for science to be applied here.

I understand science is defined in a certain way and has its scope and limitations. Then you should stop using science to discredit spirituality which is completely outside its scope.  Just because you people used science to debunk religious mythology does not mean you can do the same thing with spirituality.

You require a very different mindset to understand spirituality and the 'scientific mind' is not that.  It is too microscopic. That is the only word for it.

[Roses]

Its not because I want to redefine science.  Its because you and others are bringing in science into matters where you require more than a microscopic mind.  I did not ask for science to be applied here.

I understand science is defined in a certain way and has its scope and limitations. Then you should stop using science to discredit spirituality which is completely outside its scope.  Just because you people used science to debunk religious mythology does not mean you can do the same thing with spirituality.

You require a very different mindset to understand spirituality and the 'scientific mind' is not that.  It is too microscopic. That is the only word for it.

You make it up as you go along. You think you are right and everyone else who doesn't see it your way is wrong!

[SteveH]

You think you are right and everyone else who doesn't see it your way is wrong!

So does everyone. To think otherwise is logically contradictory.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

This requires lot of mental discipline, introspection, stillness of mind and so on. Constantly running the same old 'program' again and again will not help. Change is called for.

Let's say that I've done all that and I've arrived at the sincerely held conclusion that leprechauns are real. Can you think of any reason for someone to think that your claims of objective fact are any more true than mine?

Your problem here remains that, no matter how much "stillness", navel gazing etc you do unless you kind find some way to map your conclusions of objective fact about the world to a verifiable reality your guesses are precisely as worthless as mine.   

[Sriram]

Sriram,

Let's say that I've done all that and I've arrived at the sincerely held conclusion that leprechauns are real. Can you think of any reason for someone to think that your claims of objective fact are any more true than mine?

Your problem here remains that, no matter how much "stillness", navel gazing etc you do unless you kind find some way to map your conclusions of objective fact about the world to a verifiable reality your guesses are precisely as worthless as mine.   

Refer to the Beyond Science thread. You are under the impression that personal experiences are all vague and cannot have a common base. That is wrong.   Spiritual practices have a common base and individual progress can even be monitored and regulated.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Refer to the Beyond Science thread. You are under the impression that personal experiences are all vague and cannot have a common base. That is wrong.   Spiritual practices have a common base and individual progress can even be monitored and regulated.

Wrong again. "Personal experiences" can have have common psychological characteristics, but the objects of objective fact they claim are as many and as widespread as there are people to have them.

Have you any sense at all here of how out of your depth you are? Anything?   

[jeremyp]

The 'tool' is a certain state of mind. I can't provide it.

The state being "gullible".

[jeremyp]

Yes...I am in fact  saying exactly that....'try the telescope'.  But its not a physical instrument I can buy and provide you.

So there's no reason to believe that this "telescope" of yours really exists.

[ippy]

Sriram, no one seems to be able to get you past the Burtrand's tea pot stage, it's you that's stuck, not the rest of us on this thread.

I would imagine you are aware of Burtram's tea pot and how it applies to you as much as anyone else, try to be a little, a jot more humble about it, about something I'm sure you see as some sort of spiritual journey, whatever that is supposed to add up to?

Cheers ippy 

[BeRational]

So does everyone. To think otherwise is logically contradictory.

That's not completely true as I have had my mind changed when shown to be wrong

[Maeght]

Its not because I want to redefine science.  Its because you and others are bringing in science into matters where you require more than a microscopic mind.  I did not ask for science to be applied here.

I understand science is defined in a certain way and has its scope and limitations. Then you should stop using science to discredit spirituality which is completely outside its scope.  Just because you people used science to debunk religious mythology does not mean you can do the same thing with spirituality.

You require a very different mindset to understand spirituality and the 'scientific mind' is not that.  It is too microscopic. That is the only word for it.

You have tried before to say science should change, so glad you've changed your mind.

Where have I tried to use science to discredit spirituality? I have always said you can believe what you want as far a I'm concerned but its when you try to use science to support your beliefs I will try to get involved. Is that discrediting spirituality? 

[SteveH]

That's not completely true as I have had my mind changed when shown to be wrong

All intelligent non-bigots are open to having their minds changed if the arguments, evidence, or both are strong enough, but at any given moment, you think that what you believe is true, because that's what believing means. You must logicall also believe that anyone who believes something contrary to your beliefs is wrong.

[BeRational]

All intelligent non-bigots are open to having their minds changed if the arguments, evidence, or both are strong enough, but at any given moment, you think that what you believe is true, because that's what believing means. You must logicall also believe that anyone who believes something contrary to your beliefs is wrong.

I do not believe thi is to absolute certainty.
My beliefs are tentative and held to a level I determine the evidence suggests to me.
A lot of things I kind of believe but to very little certainty.
Like space has 11 dimensions,  well ok if that's what the evidence suggests then so be it, but I do not feel comfortable with it, and I know that not all scientists agree, so it is tentatively held.

[Nearly Sane]

I do not believe thi is to absolute certainty.
My beliefs are tentative and held to a level I determine the evidence suggests to me.
A lot of things I kind of believe but to very little certainty.
Like space has 11 dimensions,  well ok if that's what the evidence suggests then so be it, but I do not feel comfortable with it, and I know that not all scientists agree, so it is tentatively held.

Doesn't matter, if you believe something you believe you are right to believe it, and others who believe differently are wrong.  That you accept that you could be wrong, or that are less convinced by some beliefs than others doesn't mean that you don't believe you are making the right decision.

[SteveH]

Doesn't matter, if you believe something you believe you are right to believe it, and others who believe differently are wrong.  That you accept that you could be wrong, or that are less convinced by some beliefs than others doesn't mean that you don't believe you are making the right decision.

Exactly.

[Walter]

Doesn't matter, if you believe something you believe you are right to believe it, and others who believe differently are wrong.  That you accept that you could be wrong, or that are less convinced by some beliefs than others doesn't mean that you don't believe you are making the right decision.

please allow me to simplify;

If I believe what you believe and we believe that others beliefs are wrong then whose to say what they believe might just be a belief in something no one believes in and has no right to believe it  But I also believe that belief about beliefs can be very misleading and wrongly believed beliefs are no good to man nor beast. If I can believe the children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way ,show them all the beauty they posses inside
I also believe for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows

So there you have it NS , much clearer
no , you're welcome   

[Walter]

I do not believe thi is to absolute certainty.
My beliefs are tentative and held to a level I determine the evidence suggests to me.
A lot of things I kind of believe but to very little certainty.
Like space has 11 dimensions,  well ok if that's what the evidence suggests then so be it, but I do not feel comfortable with it, and I know that not all scientists agree, so it is tentatively held.

that sounds like a Richard Feynman quote , have you pinched it ?

[Nearly Sane]

please allow me to simplify;

If I believe what you believe and we believe that others beliefs are wrong then whose to say what they believe might just be a belief in something no one believes in and has no right to believe it  But I also believe that belief about beliefs can be very misleading and wrongly believed beliefs are no good to man nor beast. If I can believe the children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way ,show them all the beauty they posses inside
I also believe for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows

So there you have it NS , much clearer
no , you're welcome   

Thank your for your explanation of Labour Brexit policy.

[Walter]

Thank your for your explanation of Labour Brexit policy.

Ive decided to stand as an Independent at the next election on the

Beliefs not Facts  ticket

Its all the rage at the moment , I've got a great chance of success

[BeRational]

Doesn't matter, if you believe something you believe you are right to believe it, and others who believe differently are wrong.  That you accept that you could be wrong, or that are less convinced by some beliefs than others doesn't mean that you don't believe you are making the right decision.

You have convinced me, because I think you are wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

Ive decided to stand as an Independent at the next election on the

Beliefs not Facts  ticket

Its all the rage at the moment , I've got a great chance of success

It always has been. Politics can be based on facts but without beliefs you have no position. Facts not Beliefs ticket is a pub quiz.