Author Topic: More on the gospels.  (Read 26234 times)

Spud

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More on the gospels.
« on: April 08, 2019, 06:52:54 PM »
Have a look at Matthew's and Mark's accounts of the triumphal entry. After Jesus entered the temple, he began driving out those buying and selling.

As he does so he quotes Isaiah 56:7, "for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"

Matthew here omits "for all nations", but Mark includes it, enabling the reader to understand why Jesus quotes this passage.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:13:40 AM by Spud »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 08:28:16 PM »
Spud,

Quote
Have a look at Matthew's and Mark's accounts of the triumphal entry. Matthew says Jesus entered the temple courts, Mark says he entered the temple. There he began driving out those buying and selling.

As he does so he quotes Isaiah 56:7, "for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"

Matthew here omits "for all nations". Mark, writing for Gentiles, unwittingly enables the reader to understand why Jesus quotes this passage, by including the phrase "for all nations".

Jesus appears to be condemning the use of the outer court for selling sacrificial animals, because this area was originally reserved for non-Jews to worship in.

However, if we didn't have Matthew's version as well we wouldn't know that this all took place in the outer court. If we only had either Matthew or Mark we might not understand why Jesus quotes Isaiah 56.

So the two compliment each other by giving us a more complete picture.

Since they seem to have done this without realising it, maybe this is also evidence that they were written independently?

If a story was entirely fictional, one person wrote it and someone else embellished it you'd also have one story that complemented the first one by giving "a more complete picture", but that would tell you nothing about whether or not the first one was actually true.

In any case, most people are fairly relaxed I think about the idea of an itinerant mystic, preacher, conjuror etc (or possibly several of them whose stories were amalgamated) who did some memorable things that were recorded. This stuff tells you nothing at all though about any supposed divine component to his character.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 11:00:56 PM »
Spud,

If a story was entirely fictional, one person wrote it and someone else embellished it you'd also have one story that complemented the first one by giving "a more complete picture", but that would tell you nothing about whether or not the first one was actually true.
 
How does a story that tells you nothing about whether it was true start off by being entirely fictional and then embellished?

Spud

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2019, 08:58:06 AM »
Hi folks, I've realised that part of what I've said in the OP is wrong, so I'm in the process of editing it. Apologies for that.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2019, 10:24:24 AM »
Morning Spud,

Quote
Hi folks, I've realised that part of what I've said in the OP is wrong, so I'm in the process of editing it. Apologies for that.

If the error is about the content rather than the argument you were attempting I’m not sure it’ll make any difference for the reason I explained: a re-telling of a story with an embellishment would look the same whether the original was true or made up. If, say, my story was that I saw a dragon outside Sainsbury’s this morning and someone re-told it but added the detail that the dragon was wearing a rather jolly bonnet that wouldn’t in some way make my initial story true.
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Enki

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2019, 10:26:25 AM »
How does a story that tells you nothing about whether it was true start off by being entirely fictional and then embellished?

I think that Blue was referring to any story that was fictional and was then embellished by someone else. He was then making the point that this embellishment would give what looks like a more complete picture by complementing it. So, in other words, this is no argument for the original truth of the story at all. At least that's how I understand what he said..and I agree with him. Hence Spud's argument doesn't really hold water.

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Roses

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2019, 10:45:04 AM »
Have a look at Matthew's and Mark's accounts of the triumphal entry. After Jesus entered the temple, he began driving out those buying and selling.

As he does so he quotes Isaiah 56:7, "for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"

Matthew here omits "for all nations", but Mark includes it, enabling the reader to understand why Jesus quotes this passage.

If the story has any credence he was guilty of vandalism.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2019, 11:00:15 AM »
I think that Blue was referring to any story that was fictional and was then embellished by someone else. He was then making the point that this embellishment would give what looks like a more complete picture by complementing it. So, in other words, this is no argument for the original truth of the story at all. At least that's how I understand what he said..and I agree with him. Hence Spud's argument doesn't really hold water.
His conclusion though contradicts his opening.
Its alright saying we dont know because but he starts with a conclusion and ends with a different one. This looks like a fallacy called a complex question and or question begging.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2019, 11:05:00 AM »
enki,

Quote
I think that Blue was referring to any story that was fictional and was then embellished by someone else. He was then making the point that this embellishment would give what looks like a more complete picture by complementing it. So, in other words, this is no argument for the original truth of the story at all. At least that's how I understand what he said..and I agree with him. Hence Spud's argument doesn't really hold water.

Yes, that is the point - you'll never get a sensible reply though.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2019, 11:05:34 AM »
enki,

Told you.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2019, 11:23:39 AM »
If the story has any credence he was guilty of vandalism.
I think God rearranging matter for the better is not vandalism any more than Leonardo painting over his work.

Enki

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2019, 11:29:48 AM »
His conclusion though contradicts his opening.
Its alright saying we dont know because but he starts with a conclusion and ends with a different one. This looks like a fallacy called a complex question and or question begging.

I don't get that at all. He was giving the example of a fictional story and showing that embellishment doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the story was true. To do this he has to start with the conclusion that a story is fictional to demonstrate this point.

Therefore, when faced with a story that we do not know if it is true or not, we cannot use embellishment as a test for the truth of a story.

You might disagree, but this is all perfectly reasonable and I fail to see any fallacies have been committed. What he isn't saying is that a story must be false because embellishment must lead to that conclusion. So, question begging is not an issue at all. In other words he hasn't put up an argument where the validity requires that its own conclusion is true.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2019, 11:30:16 AM »
I think that Blue was referring to any story that was fictional and was then embellished by someone else. He was then making the point that this embellishment would give what looks like a more complete picture by complementing it. So, in other words, this is no argument for the original truth of the story at all. At least that's how I understand what he said..and I agree with him. Hence Spud's argument doesn't really hold water.
What you say in your correction of Hillsides posts might be true in certain circumstances of course.
But not in all circumstances where embellishment just makes a story less believable. Eg  Chaucers Millers tale a retelling of the Knights tale.

Roses

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2019, 11:31:17 AM »
I think God rearranging matter for the better is not vandalism any more than Leonardo painting over his work.

Jesus was no sort of god just an ordinary flawed human like the rest of us, that much is clear from the gopsels.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Enki

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2019, 11:41:26 AM »
What you say in your correction of Hillsides posts might be true in certain circumstances of course.
But not in all circumstances where embellishment just makes a story less believable. Eg  Chaucers Millers tale a retelling of the Knights tale.

No correction needed. It was quite clear from the start. Glad you agree that embellishment doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that a story is true or false, and you give an excellent example which shows the danger of using embellishment in this way. Spud, take note. :)

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 11:43:17 AM »
enki,

Quote
I don't get that at all. He was giving the example of a fictional story and showing that embellishment doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the story was true. To do this he has to start with the conclusion that a story is fictional to demonstrate this point.

Therefore, when faced with a story that we do not know if it is true or not, we cannot use embellishment as a test for the truth of a story.

You might disagree, but this is all perfectly reasonable and I fail to see any fallacies have been committed. What he isn't saying is that a story must be false because embellishment must lead to that conclusion. So, question begging is not an issue at all. In other words he hasn't put up an argument where the validity requires that its own conclusion is true.

Quite so. As I said though, you'll never get a sensible (or an honest) reply to that.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 11:47:27 AM »
Anyways, derail aside Spud's argument seems to be that an embellishment in some way adds to the veracity of the story. Clearly that's not the case, so I don't see that corrections to the content can change the failure in the premise.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2019, 12:00:26 PM »
No correction needed. It was quite clear from the start. Glad you agree that embellishment doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that a story is true or false, and you give an excellent example which shows the danger of using embellishment in this way. Spud, take note. :)
My mistake.
Youve ended going along with Hillsides errors.
The danger of embellishment example I gave does not suplort yours or Hillsides argument.

Quite the contrary.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2019, 12:06:58 PM »
enki,

Told you so (2).
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Enki

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2019, 12:33:30 PM »
My mistake.
Youve ended going along with Hillsides errors.
The danger of embellishment example I gave does not suplort yours or Hillsides argument.

Quite the contrary.

You are obviously entitled to your POV which is one that I don't share. End of. :)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Spud

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2019, 03:13:29 PM »
Morning Spud,

If the error is about the content rather than the argument you were attempting I’m not sure it’ll make any difference for the reason I explained: a re-telling of a story with an embellishment would look the same whether the original was true or made up. If, say, my story was that I saw a dragon outside Sainsbury’s this morning and someone re-told it but added the detail that the dragon was wearing a rather jolly bonnet that wouldn’t in some way make my initial story true.
Morning blue, Me thinking that I'd find lots of passages where one gospel account added detail that corroborated another gospel account... the NIV then punked me because it adds the word "courts" to "temple", when it isn't there in the original. If you look at my original OP in your first reply you'll see what happened!

Anyway, I'd say you were stood right next to the dragon and were really scared, so you didn't notice the bonnet it was wearing; the other person was further away and therefore was less scared, so he was able to notice the bonnet.

As you say, the story could be true or fictitious, and your word embellish almost assumes it is fictitious so let's just say "detail".

BeRational

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2019, 03:20:52 PM »
Morning blue, Me thinking that I'd find lots of passages where one gospel account added detail that corroborated another gospel account... the NIV then punked me because it adds the word "courts" to "temple", when it isn't there in the original. If you look at my original OP in your first reply you'll see what happened!

Anyway, I'd say you were stood right next to the dragon and were really scared, so you didn't notice the bonnet it was wearing; the other person was further away and therefore was less scared, so he was able to notice the bonnet.

As you say, the story could be true or fictitious, and your word embellish almost assumes it is fictitious so let's just say "detail".

But none of this tells you if the story is true!

Surely that is the point.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2019, 03:30:06 PM »
Hi Spud,

Quote
Morning blue, Me thinking that I'd find lots of passages where one gospel account added detail that corroborated another gospel account... the NIV then punked me because it adds the word "courts" to "temple", when it isn't there in the original. If you look at my original OP in your first reply you'll see what happened!

Anyway, I'd say you were stood right next to the dragon and were really scared, so you didn't notice the bonnet it was wearing; the other person was further away and therefore was less scared, so he was able to notice the bonnet.

Yes, but someone else adding the detail about the bonnet doesn’t thereby make my story “dragon” any more true than it ever was, which is the point. Maybe I just made up the dragon story; maybe my eyesight was so poor that I mistook a labrador for a dragon; maybe I lived in a community where dragon, gryphon, phoenix etc stories were commonplace so there’d be nothing special about me jumping to my conclusion; maybe any other non-dragon based explanation. Adding subsequently more information to the original story though doesn’t change any of that. 

Quote
As you say, the story could be true or fictitious, and your word embellish almost assumes it is fictitious so let's just say "detail".

Not really – you can embellish anything, but OK call it what you will. Your argument though – ie, that the added bit somehow has something to say to the veracity or otherwise of the original story – is false.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 03:59:06 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2019, 05:12:54 PM »
Morning blue, Me thinking that I'd find lots of passages where one gospel account added detail that corroborated another gospel account... the NIV then punked me because it adds the word "courts" to "temple", when it isn't there in the original. If you look at my original OP in your first reply you'll see what happened!

Anyway, I'd say you were stood right next to the dragon and were really scared, so you didn't notice the bonnet it was wearing; the other person was further away and therefore was less scared, so he was able to notice the bonnet.

As you say, the story could be true or fictitious, and your word embellish almost assumes it is fictitious so let's just say "detail".

Embellish, schembellish. The points made by blue etc are valid in themselves, but I can't see how in the particular instance you  cited. Mark's gospel was written first, and he quotes Isaiah (Septuagint version no doubt) pretty well. Matthew then uses Mark as the basis of his own gospel, and cuts out the bit referring to "for all nations" - for purposes of his own. In part, this is because Matthew's message is particularly directed towards Jews, though he doesn't portray them in a very rosy light.
The peculiarity of Matthew's gospel is that it seems to suggest that Jesus had a message for the Jews alone, and then at the end seems to have changed his mind and adopts a more universalist message. I'm not sure why this is so, but a number of theories have been put forward.
All in all, these matters don't go any further to sustaining your idea about each gospel corroborating each other: what they do suggest is that each evangelist had his own agenda, through which he was quite prepared to manipulate the materials at his disposal (whether they reflected actual historical truth or not).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 05:33:28 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: More on the gospels.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2019, 05:30:46 PM »
Hi Spud,

Yes, but someone else adding the detail about the bonnet doesn’t thereby make my story “dragon” any more true than it ever was.
No it is just confirmation of an argumentum ad ridiculum, appeal to ridicule or Horse Laugh IMHO.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 05:39:05 PM by Phyllis Tyne »