Rebirth....

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

I came across the following quote from the bible.


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Titus 3:5-7 New International Version (NIV)

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

************

It seems to match well with the Hindu idea that if we are cleansed, we can avoid rebirth and attain liberation (eternal life).

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

[Roses]

Hi everyone,

I came across the following quote from the bible.


************
Titus 3:5-7 New International Version (NIV)

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

************

It seems to match well with the Hindu idea that if we are cleansed, we can avoid rebirth and attain liberation (eternal life).

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

I cannot conceive of anything more unpleasant than eternal life. Once I die I hope I cease to be.

[BeRational]

Hi everyone,

I came across the following quote from the bible.


************
Titus 3:5-7 New International Version (NIV)

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

************

It seems to match well with the Hindu idea that if we are cleansed, we can avoid rebirth and attain liberation (eternal life).

Any views?

Cheers.

Sriram

Yes, it's wishful thinking.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I cannot conceive of anything more unpleasant than eternal life. Once I die I hope I cease to be.

Wishful thinking?

[Udayana]

Yes, it's wishful thinking.

Or metaphoric, symbolic, allegorical ... Not to be taken literally.   

[Owlswing]

As a Pagan I believe in the cycle of life  - Birth, Life, Dreath and Re-birth.

After death the spirit, the essence of the person journeys to the Summerlands where it can review and learn from the experiences. good, bad, and indifferent, of the previous life prior to rebirth.

 

[Roses]

Wishful thinking?

Whilst I don't know for sure, as no one who is truly dead has ever come back to life, I suspect once you die you stay dead.

[Udayana]

Whilst I don't know for sure, as no one who is truly dead has ever come back to life, I suspect once you die you stay dead.

Depends on what you mean by "you". Certainly, the actual chemical stuff your body is built from can go around many times.

[Roses]

Depends on what you mean by "you". Certainly, the actual chemical stuff your body is built from can go around many times.

Please clarify that statement.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Whilst I don't know for sure, as no one who is truly dead has ever come back to life, I suspect once you die you stay dead.

Rebirth in Christianity refers to a pre mortem experience.

[Sriram]

Whilst I don't know for sure, as no one who is truly dead has ever come back to life, I suspect once you die you stay dead.

People have come back in NDE's...and also talked of reincarnation.  Problem is that people resort to a circular argument. Death is final (assumption)....so anyone who does come back to tell you about it cannot be actually dead.  It assumes what we are trying to find out...and ends up 'proving' the assumption.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

People have come back in NDE's...and also talked of reincarnation.  Problem is that people resort to a circular argument. Death is final (assumption)....so anyone who does come back to tell you about it cannot be actually dead.  It assumes what we are trying to find out...and ends up 'proving' the assumption.

I agree.

[Sriram]

PL refer to Prof Jim Tucker....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_B._Tucker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhzoGvJsQdM

[Sriram]

http://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation

[BeRational]

People have come back in NDE's...and also talked of reincarnation.  Problem is that people resort to a circular argument. Death is final (assumption)....so anyone who does come back to tell you about it cannot be actually dead.  It assumes what we are trying to find out...and ends up 'proving' the assumption.

None of these people were dead, that's what the near part means.
They have strange experiences as the brain is starved of oxygen, big surprise!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

http://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation

I'm not sure there is a good match between the Biblical rebirth and reincarnation.
The former is a premortem experience intimately connected to God's dynamic presence hence the mention of the Holy spirit.

Tucker is apparently sceptical about reincarnation but proposes some transfer of memories and emotions. I can envisage what that means in a scientistical reductionist/informationist secular context. Is this sufficient for rebirth in the hindu sense?

[Roses]

http://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation

I don't think bad dreams, of which I had very many as a kid, even dreaming I had been someone else, can be described as evidence for reincarnation.

[Udayana]

Please clarify that statement.

I mean that all the atoms that you are made of can go on to be recycled in plants and creatures after your death. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I mean that all the atoms that you are made of can go on to be recycled in plants and creatures after your death.

If there is any consolation in that, I wonder what the nature of that consolation could possibly be.

[Sriram]

I'm not sure there is a good match between the Biblical rebirth and reincarnation.
The former is a premortem experience intimately connected to God's dynamic presence hence the mention of the Holy spirit.

Tucker is apparently sceptical about reincarnation but proposes some transfer of memories and emotions. I can envisage what that means in a scientistical reductionist/informationist secular context. Is this sufficient for rebirth in the hindu sense?

To quote from my last link....

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Tucker, like Max Planck, the father of quantum physics, believes that discovery shows that the physical world is affected by, and even derived from the non-physical, from consciousness.

If that’s true, then consciousness doesn’t require a three-pound brain to exist, Tucker says, and so there’s no reason to think that consciousness would end with it.

“It’s conceivable that in some way consciousness could be expressed in a new life,” Tucker says.

***********

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

People have come back in NDE's...and also talked of reincarnation.  Problem is that people resort to a circular argument. Death is final (assumption)....so anyone who does come back to tell you about it cannot be actually dead.  It assumes what we are trying to find out...and ends up 'proving' the assumption.

Nope. “Death is final” is a working assumption in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. If someone claimed to be reincarnated then the burden of proof would be on him to demonstrate his claim to be more probably true than not. So far at least no-one has done so, so the working assumption stands.

That’s got nothing to do with circular reasoning either, which means something else.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sriram,

Nope. “Death is final” is a working assumption in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. If someone claimed to be reincarnated then the burden of proof would be on him to demonstrate his claim to be more probably true than not.

At the risk of sounding controversial why would somebody convinced she is reincarnated frankly give a shit about her burden of proof? It needn't have any bearing on others and presumably it is not something that involves a decision which affects or effects any consequences.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That’s got nothing to do with circular reasoning either, which means something else.

Perhaps you'd like to justify that for us.

[Maeght]

I agree.

Yo agree that ordinary humans can come back from the dead?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yo agree that ordinary humans can come back from the dead?

No...……………. I agree that Death is final because, er, Death is final is a circular argument.

That people don't usually come back from the dead and I never expect to see it I can agree with......I am even prepared to accept we never come back to this universe.