Religion has roots in animals..?

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Here is a BBC article tracing the possible origins of religions from the animal world.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190418-how-and-why-did-religion-evolve

**************

In archival footage, primatologist and anthropologist Jane Goodall describes the well-known waterfall dance which has been widely observed in chimpanzees.

These observations have led her to conclude that chimpanzees are as spiritual as we are. “They can’t analyse it, they don’t talk about it, they can’t describe what they feel. But you get the feeling that it’s all locked up inside them and the only way they can express it is through this fantastic rhythmic dance.”

Our religious services of today may seem worlds away from the mammalian play and empathy that emerged in our deep past, and indeed institutionalised religion is much more advanced than a so-called waterfall dance. But evolution teaches us that complex, advanced phenomena develop from simple beginnings. As Bellah reminds us, we don’t come from nowhere. “We are embedded in a deep biological and cosmological history.”

**************

Cheers.

Sriram

[torridon]

This wouldn't surprise me at all. All extant characteristics in humans must have roots; they must have come from something.

The observation that flowers are beautiful and that they evolved their forms to attract pollinating insects long before humans evolved tells a story about how deep are the roots of human aesthetic sense.

[Harrowby Hall]

Religion is much more likely to have originated in the desire of some people to have control over other people. The person who convinced others that he knew the reason for thunder and lightning and could "ensure" that catastrophe would not happen had a different kind of power from those who simply used force.

Aesthetic experiences are just that, experiences which appeal to our evolved sensory modalities. To consider they are the product of "spirituality" is irrational and infantile.

[Bramble]

Had religion been explained to me as a child as something like the waterfall dance I would have probably have entered the priesthood. Wherever did we go wrong?

[Enki]

I agree that it is entirely plausible that the origins of our behaviour are rooted in our evolutionary past, and, especially for us as a social species, such events as communal eating and appreciation of the aesthetic, have a long history which isn't necessarily confined to our own species.

I see Robin Dunbar was mentioned in the article, an evolutionary psychologist whom I have a lot of time for. Some years ago, I delivered a paper to a certain group on the history of language and I referred to Robin Dunbar's idea that one  of the chief uses of language was in social grooming, which allowed the individual to form bonds with many others(circa 150, according to Dunbar, if my memory serves me correctly). For anyone interested the name of his book is 'Grooming, Gossip and the Evolution of Language'.

[Sriram]

This wouldn't surprise me at all. All extant characteristics in humans must have roots; they must have come from something.

The observation that flowers are beautiful and that they evolved their forms to attract pollinating insects long before humans evolved tells a story about how deep are the roots of human aesthetic sense.

Yes...it should be obvious that most of the traits in humans, especially globally widespread ones, should have their roots in the animal world. That should not be surprising.

But it does raise the issue of why some of these traits evolve. Saying that it is for survival doesn't make sense because even those animals that do not display these  traits survive.  The usual, random genetic variation and Natural Selection 'explanation' also does not wash.

So, why have religions developed so universally across the world.  What do religions do? 

They unite people, they enforce morality, they lay down norms for society, they give life a sense of purpose, they give us solace and comfort...and finally they also teach us some fundamental truths about our own consciousness and mind that we are usually unconscious of.

This clearly points to the fact that evolution has aided our self awareness and realization of the complexities inherent in our personality. This is what spirituality and Yoga teache.  In other words, biological evolution has made spiritual development possible. They go hand in hand.

Instead of seeing spirituality/religions as chance byproducts of evolution, we should see them as one of the goals of evolution.

[torridon]

Yes...it should be obvious that most of the traits in humans, especially globally widespread ones, should have their roots in the animal world. That should not be surprising.

But it does raise the issue of why some of these traits evolve. Saying that it is for survival doesn't make sense because even those animals that do not display these  traits survive.  The usual, random genetic variation and Natural Selection 'explanation' also does not wash.

So, why have religions developed so universally across the world.  What do religions do? 

They unite people, they enforce morality, they lay down norms for society, they give life a sense of purpose, they give us solace and comfort...and finally they also teach us some fundamental truths about our own consciousness and mind that we are usually unconscious of.

This clearly points to the fact that evolution has aided our self awareness and realization of the complexities inherent in our personality. This is what spirituality and Yoga teache.  In other words, biological evolution has made spiritual development possible. They go hand in hand.

Instead of seeing spirituality/religions as chance byproducts of evolution, we should see them as one of the goals of evolution.

Evolution can't have 'goals' because it is an insentient process. That would be like claiming that gravity has a 'goal' of making things fall down. You are anthropomorphising again.

[Gordon]

Yes...it should be obvious that most of the traits in humans, especially globally widespread ones, should have their roots in the animal world. That should not be surprising.

But it does raise the issue of why some of these traits evolve.

The TofE provides the best explanation to date for how species and their characteristics evolve: there is no 'why', just 'how'.

Saying that it is for survival doesn't make sense because even those animals that do not display these  traits survive.

Other species have less need for human traits than do humans, just as we humans have less need for wings or gills.

The usual, random genetic variation and Natural Selection 'explanation' also does not wash.

It washes fine.

So, why have religions developed so universally across the world.  What do religions do? 

They unite people,

Yet they have been, and still are, a key source of human conflict.

they enforce morality,

On their own terms to only those who accept the authority of religions as regards morality: many don't, and nor is morality the exclusive province of religions.
 

they lay down norms for society,

On their own terms to only those who accept the authority of religions as regards social norms: many don't and, moreover, since some aspects of religions can be viewed as being socially divisive then, for some of us, like me, religions have no personal relevance and is something that happens to some other people and it is only when the effects of religion on others intrude into wider society and social policy that I find religions are relevant - sadly though these effects tend to be negative rather than positive.

they give life a sense of purpose,

To some, but not all.

they give us solace and comfort...

To some, but not all.

and finally they also teach us some fundamental truths about our own consciousness and mind that we are usually unconscious of.

As far as I can see they don't say anything about psychology or neurology, so I suspect you are over-reaching again.

This clearly points to the fact that evolution has aided our self awareness and realization of the complexities inherent in our personality. This is what spirituality and Yoga teache.  In other words, biological evolution has made spiritual development possible. They go hand in hand.

If 'spiritual development' is code for mental activity involving abstractions then it is just a form of biological activity that is a trait of our species.
 

Instead of seeing spirituality/religions as chance byproducts of evolution, we should see them as one of the goals of evolution.

The TofE doesn't involve goals: there is no intended purpose involved.

[Stranger]

But it does raise the issue of why some of these traits evolve. Saying that it is for survival doesn't make sense because even those animals that do not display these  traits survive.

So being able to run fast or having camouflage cannot be to do with survival because animals that do not display these traits also survive?

Your misunderstanding of evolution borders on the comical sometimes.

Whether some trait is a survival advantage or not depends on the context: on the organism and on its environment.

The usual, random genetic variation and Natural Selection 'explanation' also does not wash.

It works just fine. The fact that you obviously don't understand it, doesn't change that fact.

So, why have religions developed so universally across the world.  What do religions do? 

They unite people, they enforce morality, they lay down norms for society, they give life a sense of purpose, they give us solace and comfort...

...and they cause conflict, wars, persecution, prejudice, and encourage irrational thinking.

...and finally they also teach us some fundamental truths about our own consciousness and mind that we are usually unconscious of.

Such as?

Instead of seeing spirituality/religions as chance byproducts of evolution, we should see them as one of the goals of evolution.

Evolution doesn't have goals.

[Sriram]

Evolution can't have 'goals' because it is an insentient process. That would be like claiming that gravity has a 'goal' of making things fall down. You are anthropomorphising again.

Gravity is a force. Evolution is a very complex process that leads to increased complexity and creation of self aware humans.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Gravity is a force. Evolution is a very complex process that leads to increased complexity and creation of self aware humans.

It's "has produced", not "that leads to" and that doesn't fix your mistake of asserting it to have "goals".

[ekim]

"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

Michel de Montaigne

To understand via the  heart is not to understand fully.  To understand via the head is not to understand fully.  To understand via the head and heart is to understand better.

Michel de la Mer

[torridon]

Gravity is a force. Evolution is a very complex process that leads to increased complexity and creation of self aware humans.

So what, one is a force, one is a process; they are both still insentient.  If a mutation happens that confers an advantage, it doesn't know it is conferring an advantage.  Mutations cannot plan or plot.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Re the OP by the way, the work of BF Skinner* has produced some conjecture about the origin of religion. The pigeon would make various moves – bobbing, weaving, turning around at certain number of times etc – before by chance pecking the button that released the food. Having done that, the pigeon would then repeat exactly the same ritual over and over again, all the while unaware that all it had to do was just peck the button. That use of ritual mirrors the practices of shamans and witch doctors – perhaps by chance a certain leaf would have medicinal properties, but the shaman would repeat a whole series of practices – chanting, blowing smoke, dancing etc – before administering the leaf because that’s the way it was always done by his predecessors.

And it was perhaps this reliance on ritual that gave rise to behaviours that were (and are) codified as religious practices. To put it another way, maybe there’s a continuum with a pigeon at one end and Pope Francis at the other...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner
         

[Enki]

From Sriram's post 5,

So, why have religions developed so universally across the world.  What do religions do? 

They unite people, they enforce morality, they lay down norms for society, they give life a sense of purpose, they give us solace and comfort...and finally they also teach us some fundamental truths about our own consciousness and mind that we are usually unconscious of.

my alternative to that might well be:


They unite select groups of people, they enforce their version of morality upon those people, however harsh and unjust it may seem to others, they lay down the norms for their particular society, they give their particular group a sense of purpose, they can give solace and comfort to their adherents, or alternatively they can dominate by creating fear and anguish amongst their adherents...and finally they can also teach us how we should always be aware of the possible dangers of religious adherence such as cognititive dissonance and acts which are seen as benefiting members of their own religious group to the detriment of others.

[ekim]

An interesting example of malimprinting ..... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-48011113

[jeremyp]

Gravity is a force.

Or maybe it is a curvature of space-time. Nevertheless it has led to some complex structures.

Evolution is a very complex process

No it isn't. Evolution by natural selection is very easy to define. It has led to some very complex results, but the process itself is remarkably simple.

that leads to increased complexity and creation of self aware humans.

"Has led to" would be more accurate.  There's no guarantee that evolution will lead to humans or something like them. There's also no guarantee that evolution leads to an increase in complexity.

[Sriram]

Evolution can't have 'goals' because it is an insentient process. That would be like claiming that gravity has a 'goal' of making things fall down. You are anthropomorphising again.

This is something we have discussed many times. Evolution happens everywhere, in man made products also.  There is a 'selection', there are variations and there is increase in complexity.....but there is always an Intelligence behind it....directing the entire process.

We have also discussed genetic memory, phenotypic plasticity and epigenetics where adaptations happen in line with environmental changes. 

In any case, this is a matter of perception....about how we choose to perceive it.

[Sriram]

From Sriram's post 5,
 

my alternative to that might well be:


They unite select groups of people, they enforce their version of morality upon those people, however harsh and unjust it may seem to others, they lay down the norms for their particular society, they give their particular group a sense of purpose, they can give solace and comfort to their adherents, or alternatively they can dominate by creating fear and anguish amongst their adherents...and finally they can also teach us how we should always be aware of the possible dangers of religious adherence such as cognititive dissonance and acts which are seen as benefiting members of their own religious group to the detriment of others.

You are just trying very hard to see everything from a negative perspective. All these things can be seen positively also.

[torridon]

This is something we have discussed many times. Evolution happens everywhere, in man made products also.  There is a 'selection', there are variations and there is increase in complexity.....but there is always an Intelligence behind it....directing the entire process.

Clearly there is intelligence guiding artificial selection, and just as clearly there is no guiding intelligence behind natural selection.  This is why Darwin termed it Natural Selection - to differentiate it from artificial selection.

[torridon]

We have also discussed genetic memory, phenotypic plasticity and epigenetics where adaptations happen in line with environmental changes. 

Again, no guiding intelligence in any of these phenomena, all are completely natural.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

This is something we have discussed many times. Evolution happens everywhere, in man made products also.  There is a 'selection', there are variations and there is increase in complexity.....but there is always an Intelligence behind it....directing the entire process.

Flat wrong. There's "intelligence behind" artificially engineered evolutionary processes, but there's no evidence at all to suggest that there's such a thing behind evolution by natural selection. The clue is in the word "natural".   

In any case, this is a matter of perception....about how we choose to perceive it.

No it isn't. Opinions are matters of perception, but facts aren't. You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. 

[Sriram]

Again, no guiding intelligence in any of these phenomena, all are completely natural.

That is just an assertion.  Merely because you use the word 'natural' does not automatically mean that there is no guiding intelligence. Mechanisms by which intelligent adaptations can happen have been identified, as I mentioned above.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

That is just an assertion.  Merely because you use the word 'natural' does not automatically mean that there is no guiding intelligence. Mechanisms by which intelligent adaptations can happen have been identified, as I mentioned above.

Your problem here is that you have little grasp of basic logic. If you want to assert as a fact a guiding intelligence, then the burden of proof is with you to demonstrate that claim. As things stand though, as the claim requires significantly more assumptions than the observable naturalistic alternative, no guiding intelligence is the default position. 

[Enki]

You are just trying very hard to see everything from a negative perspective. All these things can be seen positively also.

Nope, just illustrating that bad things(bias, prejudice, tribalism, power) as well as good things(solace, personal well being, coping aid, social integration within the group) stem from religions.

Many of the things that we value today have flourished often despite the influences of all sorts of ideologies including religion, such things as tolerance, altruism, equality, advancement of knowledge, impartiality, rational thinking.