Holy Stairs

[Sriram]

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/style/2019/04/15/vatican-displays-holy-stairs-for-the-first-time-in-300-years.cnn

Stairs that Jesus is said to have climbed before his crucifixion.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Stairway to Heaven?

[Gordon]

Or maybe - (more than) three steps to heaven.

[Nearly Sane]

I've walked up these when they were covered with occasional glass bits so you see where the blood of Jesus had stained the steps. The faithful go up on their knees. The steps, and building in which they are based feature in the rather excellent The Discovery of Heaven by Harry Mulisch.

[Walter]

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/style/2019/04/15/vatican-displays-holy-stairs-for-the-first-time-in-300-years.cnn

Stairs that Jesus is said to have climbed before his crucifixion.

can you see me slowly shaking my head ?

[jeremyp]

I've walked up these when they were covered with occasional glass bits so you see where the blood of Jesus had stained the steps.

Yeeesssss.

I just looked them up on Wikipedia and the legend is that they were shipped to Rome in 326 i.e. almost 300 years after the event. The possibility that they hadn't been given a good scrubbing between the trial of Jesus and 326 seems likely to be low.

[Walter]

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/style/2019/04/15/vatican-displays-holy-stairs-for-the-first-time-in-300-years.cnn

Stairs that Jesus is said to have climbed before his crucifixion.

when I was there I bought a used lollypop stick for $100 said to have been eaten by Jesus as he walked up those stairs for refreshment. Do you think I was conned ?

[Nearly Sane]

Yeeesssss.

I just looked them up on Wikipedia and the legend is that they were shipped to Rome in 326 i.e. almost 300 years after the event. The possibility that they hadn't been given a good scrubbing between the trial of Jesus and 326 seems likely to be low.

I think the idea is that Jesus's blood was so miraculously soaked into the marble that not even repeated Cilit Bang treatment would work. The belief is that these were brought back by St Helena who went round the 'Holy Land' buying anything anyone could stick Holy in front of.

[Roses]

The RCC doesn't half prey on the gullibility of the faithful!

[Nearly Sane]

The RCC doesn't half prey on the gullibility of the faithful!

I think this gets a central part wrong. The motivation is about being faithful. The vast majority of anyone in the Catholic Church have belief in these sort of things, up to the highest levels. Even those who doubt the authenticity of such things as the Sancta Scala see some truth in them in a symbolic fashion.

[jeremyp]

I think the idea is that Jesus's blood was so miraculously soaked into the marble that not even repeated Cilit Bang treatment would work.

Why would they need to protect the Holy Bloodstains with glass then?

The belief is that these were brought back by St Helena who went round the 'Holy Land' buying anything anyone could stick Holy in front of.

Is it possible she might have been scammed?

[ProfessorDavey]

The vast majority of anyone in the Catholic Church have belief in these sort of things ...

Really? And your evidence for this being?

[Nearly Sane]

Really? And your evidence for this being?

In the sense of the symbolism - the point is that there isn't an idea that the institution is a cabal of people pretending to believe to fool the gullible.

[Nearly Sane]

Why would they need to protect the Holy Bloodstains with glass then?
Is it possible she might have been scammed?

Because you could 'besmirch' them by doing things to them. And yes, I'm pretty sure that wherever St Helena went there were desperately manufacturing relics.

[ProfessorDavey]

In the sense of the symbolism ...

And your evidence for this being?

[Nearly Sane]

And your evidence for this being?

That people remain Catholic and don't see relics like this as a big scam by the institution

[Walter]

And your evidence for this being?

well I read it in the Sun newspaper so it must be true .

[ProfessorDavey]

That people remain Catholic and don't see relics like this as a big scam by the institution

That isn't how I interpreted your comment:

'The vast majority of anyone in the Catholic Church have belief in these sort of things ...'

That reads that the majority of catholics believe in reliquary, rather than the majority don't believe that the catholic church are pulling the wool over their eyes.

Would be helpful if you clarify - do you think that most catholics actually believe in reliquary?

[Nearly Sane]

That isn't how I interpreted your comment:

'The vast majority of anyone in the Catholic Church have belief in these sort of things ...'

That reads that the majority of catholics believe in reliquary, rather than the majority don't believe that the catholic church are pulling the wool over their eyes.

Would be helpful if you clarify - do you think that most catholics actually believe in reliquary?

I think they believe in the symbolism as I have said. I was replying to LR's idea that it is effectively a conspiracy by the institution to take advantage of the gullible. Whether most believe in the claims about the Holy Stairs, or even know that the Holy Stairs exist, I doubt. But I don't think they see it as a conspiracy, and overall, I think a large number of them see stuff like this as having a truth.

[ad_orientem]

I think they believe in the symbolism as I have said. I was replying to LR's idea that it is effectively a conspiracy by the institution to take advantage of the gullible. Whether most believe in the claims about the Holy Stairs, or even know that the Holy Stairs exist, I doubt. But I don't think they see it as a conspiracy, and overall, I think a large number of them see stuff like this as having a truth.

 

Spot on.

[ad_orientem]

These kinds of things I see as some being real and some not. But that is not the real point. I see them much like icons. They are seen as conduits to the one depicted in it.

[Sriram]

Most religious relics and figures are symbols. Most stories are allegories or analogies.  Its not about whether a story is literally true or false.

The effect these things have on our mind and how they trigger a positive change within us, is what matters. 

Often, the hope, solace and sense of higher purpose that these things produce in people is itself enough to make life worthwhile.  The humility and reduction of ego is another worthwhile effect. 

[ProfessorDavey]

... and overall, I think a large number of them see stuff like this as having a truth.

But you didn't originally say 'a large number', you claimed 'the vast majority'

That's what I take issue with - how do you know this. I suggest neither you nor I have a clue about the proportion of catholics (practising or otherwise) that think as you suggest. As far as I'm aware there isn't any polling of opinion on this. So, in effect, all we are relying on is our experiences of the opinions of catholics we know who will, of course, be a teeny, tiny number in comparison with all the catholics in the UK, or worldwide and their opinions may not be representative at all.

[Sriram]

Nearly Sane getting a dose of his own medicine there...! Pedantry!   

[ProfessorDavey]

Nearly Sane getting a dose of his own medicine there...! Pedantry!   

It isn't really about pedantry, but about sweeping generalisations - NS made a sweeping generalisation about what 'the vast majority' of catholics think. He has no evidence to back up this claim - that's the point.