Holy Stairs

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Most religious relics and figures are symbols. Most stories are allegories or analogies.  Its not about whether a story is literally true or false.

It is when the when the story is a claim of fact about the world – like there being a god who will cure little Timmy if you pray hard enough so don’t bother with his medicine. 

The effect these things have on our mind and how they trigger a positive change within us, is what matters.

In general it seems to me that wishful and woolly thinking is more likely to have a negative than a positive effect on our minds – think Richard Feynman’s “For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled” – but that’s just me I guess.   

Often, the hope, solace and sense of higher purpose that these things produce in people is itself enough to make life worthwhile.  The humility and reduction of ego is another worthwhile effect.

And others would say that the intolerance of other beliefs, religiously reinforced bigotry and refusal ever to change your mind and so to learn make their lives “worthwhile”. That’s the problem – we don’t need stories about gods to tell us how to behave well, but when we do then the risk is that the certainties that come with them are as likely to concretise undesirable behaviours as they are desirable ones.   

[Sriram]

Ok....let me take that one...

You must have heard of mind over matter, power of positive thinking, placebo effect, spontaneous healing and such other things.  They all are real phenomena, not imaginary.

Faith (even in a imaginary deity) has certain effects on the mind that can affect the body and its immune system very positively.

I am not saying that medicines should be discarded. I am saying that faith can have surprising healing effects....besides creating a very positive attitude towards life in general.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Ok....let me take that one...

You must have heard of mind over matter, power of positive thinking, placebo effect, spontaneous healing and such other things.  They all are real phenomena, not imaginary.

Faith (even in a imaginary deity) has certain effects on the mind that can affect the body and its immune system very positively.

I am not saying that medicines should be discarded. I am saying that faith can have surprising healing effects....besides creating a very positive attitude towards life in general.

But you referenced religions specifically. If you actually meant just something like having confidence in a medical treatment is likely to increase the chances of a positive outcome (ie, the placebo effect) then yes, that's a well-known (and fascinating) phenomenon. It also occurs by the way then the patients are told that the pill is a placebo - which perhaps says something about ex-theists not immediately becoming rapists and murderers.     

[Sriram]

Sriram,

But you referenced religions specifically. If you actually meant just something like having confidence in a medical treatment is likely to increase the chances of a positive outcome (ie, the placebo effect) then yes, that's a well-known (and fascinating) phenomenon. It also occurs by the way then the patients are told that the pill is a placebo - which perhaps says something about ex-theists not immediately becoming rapists and murderers.   

Instead of having confidence in a specific treatment (which the patient may not know anything about), he has confidence/faith in a deity who is watching over him! What's the difference?!   The internal effect is the same.

[ProfessorDavey]

Instead of having confidence in a specific treatment (which the patient may not know anything about), he has confidence/faith in a deity who is watching over him! What's the difference?!   The internal effect is the same.

The difference is that the effectiveness of the medical treatment is proven to work (certainly in evidence-based medicine). While there is a well known placebo effect, not all people experience it and the effect may be negative or positive. Probably the most widely respected study of the effect of prayer on medical conditions involved patients recovering from heart surgery in three groups:

Group 1: Were not prayed for
Group 2: Were prayed for and were told this was happening
Group 3: Were prayed for and were not told this was happening

There was no difference in the recovery rates between groups 1 and 3 - in other word prayer doesn't work outside of the psychological placebo effect. However group 2 had significantly worse recovery rates compared to groups 1 and 3. In other words the placebo effect made things worse not better.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Instead of having confidence in a specific treatment (which the patient may not know anything about), he has confidence/faith in a deity who is watching over him! What's the difference?!   The internal effect is the same.

So far as I’m aware there’s no data that suggests that sick religious people get better more often or more quickly than people who aren’t religious. The other difference by the way is that people taking placebos tend not to insist that others (especially children) agree with them, condemn some people for what they do in bed, make evidence-denying claims of fact about the world etc.     

[Sriram]

You are going into extraneous matters. How fanatically a person believes in his deity is not what we are talking about.  That can have negative effects.

But having faith in a deity certainly helps in healing and in general life situations. 

[ProfessorDavey]

But having faith in a deity certainly helps in healing and in general life situations.

Proper scientific evidence please

[ProfessorDavey]

You are going into extraneous matters. How fanatically a person believes in his deity is not what we are talking about.  That can have negative effects.

No I'm not - the study wasn't interested in how fanatically a person believes in a deity - all it looked at was whether prayer worked (irrespective of whether the person prayed for was aware) - it didn't. And the effect of the person knowing they were being prayed for (a placebo effect) - the effects were negative.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

You are going into extraneous matters. How fanatically a person believes in his deity is not what we are talking about.  That can have negative effects.

No I'm not. Your regularly assert religious faith to be a force for good - it seems to me that though that there's considerable evidence for it doing more harm than good. 

But having faith in a deity certainly helps in healing and in general life situations.

That's a big claim. What makes you think that it's true?

[Walter]

Hi blue
did you watch The Fantastic Mr Feynman on BBC4 last night ?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hey Walter,

Hi blue
did you watch The Fantastic Mr Feynman on BBC4 last night ?

Yes I did - and not for the first time. What a wonderful man he was. 

[Walter]

Hey Walter,

Yes I did - and not for the first time. What a wonderful man he was.

here's a quote from Mr Feynman I think is rather apt on this board

681 likes
Like
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”
― Richard P. Feynman
tags: science

[SusanDoris]

Hi blue
did you watch The Fantastic Mr Feynman on BBC4 last night ?

What was it about - was there a theme to the programme? A scientist I know made a DVD for me ages ago, copied from audios of a series of lectures he'd had as a student.  I listened to most of them - didn't understand the physics, but never mind! The DVD also included one of his books which, if I remember correctly, was 'Surely you're joking, Mr Feynmann?'

[Walter]

What was it about - was there a theme to the programme? A scientist I know made a DVD for me ages ago, copied from audios of a series of lectures he'd had as a student.  I listened to most of them - didn't understand the physics, but never mind! The DVD also included one of his books which, if I remember correctly, was 'Surely you're joking, Mr Feynmann?'

hi SD
This might help , its on BBC I player
 The Fantastic Mr Feynman

Richard Feynman is one of the most iconic, influential and inspiring scientists of the 20th century. He helped design the atomic bomb, solved the mystery of the Challenger Shuttle catastrophe and won a Nobel Prize. Now, 25 years after his death - in his own words and those of his friends and family - this is the story of the most captivating communicator in the history of science.
Less

[Sriram]

Hi blue and ProfD,

I don't want to get into a dead end ..'yes it is...no it isn't' type of argument. Nor do I have statistics and  figures to corroborate every sentence I write.

I am writing as a spiritual person who has seen lot of religion pretty close up.  Religious faith does bring solace, hope and a  sense of purpose to life. This happens regardless of the deity one worships.  Hindus have understood this long ago and generally leave people to choose their own personal deity (ishtadevata).

My point being that regardless of whether Jesus actually walked on those stairs or not, if people believe that he did and have a sense of reverence and humility because of that.....that is just fine.

Cheers.

Sriram 

[Anchorman]

Ah! When I managed to stay awake at 'church history' lectures at Glasgow UNI, This was classed as "MBHR" M- More B - Bloody H - Helena R- Rubbish.

[ProfessorDavey]

Religious faith does bring solace, hope and a  sense of purpose to life.

As do many things.

And religion also brings guilt, anxiety, uncertainty and stress to others.

And it also depends on what that 'purpose to life' leads to - with religion it may lead to intolerance, hatred, division and persecution, just as much as it might lead to love, kindness and tolerance.

[Roses]

Hi blue and ProfD,

I don't want to get into a dead end ..'yes it is...no it isn't' type of argument. Nor do I have statistics and  figures to corroborate every sentence I write.

I am writing as a spiritual person who has seen lot of religion pretty close up.  Religious faith does bring solace, hope and a  sense of purpose to life. This happens regardless of the deity one worships.  Hindus have understood this long ago and generally leave people to choose their own personal deity (ishtadevata).

My point being that regardless of whether Jesus actually walked on those stairs or not, if people believe that he did and have a sense of reverence and humility because of that.....that is just fine.

Cheers.

Sriram

My religious faith caused me stress and anxiety as a young person, I was glad when I was no longer a believer.

[Sriram]

IMO the positives that have come out of religions far outweigh the negatives...

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

IMO the positives that have come out of religions far outweigh the negatives...

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

What metrics have you used to measure the good and bad effects? How much further ahead would we be for example if Newton hadn't wasted the latter half of his life trying to find hidden messages in the Bible? 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Ah I see, more mindless assertions from one of your thought-free articles then. You've fallen victim to something called survivorship bias - "look how much we know now - that'll be down to the leg up religions gave us then". Problem is, you have no means to measure how much more we might know but for the stultifying effect of religions. A clue though might be to look at the total absence of scientific discovery once a religious tradition takes over - consider the flowering of knowledge in the pre-Islamic Middle East for example, or for another one why the Dark Ages in Europe were in fact the dark ages.   

[Sriram]

Your thinking is too microscopic, which is why you need metrics for everything.  I can see the effects of religion all around me.

Newton probably realized that even the discovery of gravity was not enough to explain life and to make it worthwhile. He was probably looking for the subtle forces behind the obvious natural laws. Sensible IMO!

Knowledge is not just about the material world around us. Diminishing returns!  Many many youngsters, engineers, doctors, science students, are today taking up spiritual practices because they find them more fulfilling.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Your thinking is too microscopic, which is why you need metrics for everything.  I can see the effects of religion all around me.

No it isn’t. If you want to make a claim of fact – ”X was more successful than no X would have been” – then you need some way to measure the effects of X and no X. If not for measurable metrics, then what?   

I can see the effects of religion all around me.

Anecdote isn’t evidence. Surely you realise that by now don’t you?

Newton probably realized that even the discovery of gravity was not enough to explain life and to make it worthwhile. He was probably looking for the subtle forces behind the obvious natural laws. Sensible IMO!

Whatever you’re guessing he was looking for and however sensible you think that to have been, it misses the point: had Newton kept at his (real world) research it’s quite possible that he would have made discoveries long before they were eventually made by others, with an accelerating effect on progress.     

Knowledge is not just about the material world around us. Diminishing returns!

So you assert. Presumably then you’ll be along at some point to demonstrate a non-material about which we could also have knowledge?

Many many youngsters, engineers, doctors, science students, are today taking up spiritual practices because they find them more fulfilling.

So you claim. And how do you think discoveries in engineering, medicine and science do could thereby be produced even if it was true?

[Roses]

IMO the positives that have come out of religions far outweigh the negatives...

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

I can't think of anything positive about religion.