End of life, or live forever!

[Walter]

What is there no evidence for?  There is evidence for consciousness. There is evidence for human consciousness moving to more selfless, universal and integrative levels.

You are assuming that all this is a chance product of brain development (some 'need to survive'). I am assuming that it is not a product of the brain but is something independent of the brain. Level of Consciousness and brain development moving in tandem.

well at least you admit its just an assumption and as such it can be dismissed . Unless you've got some evidence to back it up .

On you go …………….

[Walter]

I once spent 6 months in Nepal trying to find myself . I wasn't there. Turns out I was in ASDA in Leeds 

[Stranger]

You are assuming that all this is a chance product of brain development (some 'need to survive').

All the evidence is that it is a product of evolution.

BTW, there is no mysterious "need to survive" - if only you could be bothered to correct your pitiful misunderstanding of the subject, the reason would be obvious.

I am assuming that it is not a product of the brain but is something independent of the brain. Level of Consciousness and brain development moving in tandem.

There is no evidence whatsoever for this. This is what is called "blind faith".

[ekim]

we are all capable of the qualities that you enumerate by a myriad of methods or indeed needing no method at all because they are all qualities which are part of our natures.

Now would be a good time to advertise these methods or no methods.  Perhaps the House of Commons would benefit. 

[Enki]

Now would be a good time to advertise these methods or no methods.  Perhaps the House of Commons would benefit. 

It happens all the time, Ekim. There are plenty of people who show Sriram's 'higher self'. Here's just one, who lives not that far from where I live. The pilot also showed the same qualities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-47372565

[Sriram]

It happens all the time, Ekim. There are plenty of people who show Sriram's 'higher self'. Here's just one, who lives not that far from where I live. The pilot also showed the same qualities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-47372565

Yes...precisely! I never said people don't. Many people across the world exhibit the qualities of the Higher Self.

[Sriram]

What is there no evidence for?  There is evidence for consciousness. There is evidence for human consciousness moving to more selfless, universal and integrative levels.

You are assuming that all this is a chance product of brain development (some 'need to survive'). I am assuming that it is not a product of the brain but is something independent of the brain. Level of Consciousness and brain development moving in tandem.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/mind-and-brain/

[Roses]

Yes...precisely! I never said people don't. Many people across the world exhibit the qualities of the Higher Self.

'Higher self' is just your term for people who behave in a good, decent way, it isn't meaningful, imo.

[ekim]

It happens all the time, Ekim. There are plenty of people who show Sriram's 'higher self'. Here's just one, who lives not that far from where I live. The pilot also showed the same qualities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-47372565

Yes, it's a pity that Sriram is using the expression 'higher self' as opposed to Atman, but it was the 'myriad of methods' you mentioned that I was more interested in, particularly if there is one which sustains the qualities mentioned so that that same pilot did not feel obliged to drop bombs on German children whilst self sacrificing to save English children.

[Stranger]

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/mind-and-brain/

Your heroic levels of ignorance and staggering lack of reasoning ability never cease to amaze.

This is a true classic:

There are several reasons to believe that the Mind is not entirely a product of the brain and is not generated merely as a result of the electrical and chemical impulses in the brain.

What are these reasons?

I will begin with some commonsensical and simple reasons ….. and then go on to more complex and compelling reasons for a dualistic system.

1.Some basic reasons.

a)The brain did not create itself. It is obviously just a product of our stem cells and DNA. If we have to classify any part of the human anatomy as ‘Intelligent’ and ‘self willed’, it has to be our DNA and not the brain.

b) The brain does not function independently of the total human anatomy and physiology. Without the other organs in the body, the brain cannot function at all. If other vital organs fail, the brain will also die. Since the brain did not create the complex human system and was only produced as a part of the total system, there has to be an agency independent of the system that decides its role in the system. Therefore considering the Brain as a overall controlling and pivotal entity is clearly not correct.

Is Fundies Say the Darndest Things still going?

[Enki]

Yes, it's a pity that Sriram is using the expression 'higher self' as opposed to Atman, but it was the 'myriad of methods' you mentioned that I was more interested in, particularly if there is one which sustains the qualities mentioned so that that same pilot did not feel obliged to drop bombs on German children whilst self sacrificing to save English children.

I would say that it was obvious that people find many ways of expressing their natural qualities of Sriram's 'higher mind', e.g. through their social interaction, their culture, their natural instincts in certain situations. Some of these may be encouraged by methods of learning which might include meditation, schooling, emphasizing and praising individuals who show these qualities.

I would also remind you that I also suggested that those natural instincts also include the opposites of Sriram's 'higher mind' qualities.(see the first paragraph  of post 47)

As regards your comment on the pilot, it seems to me that you are making a gross simplification of what happened. For instance, I doubt if that pilot deliberately targeted German children, but, on the other hand, it seems he did deliberately target his plane away from the English children. Also, it might be that the powers that be of that time thought that the bombings over Germany would lead to eventual German surrender which they thought was a good thing, however right/wrong we may see their actions now.

The point I am making is that Sriram's 'higher mind' is as much a part of human nature as qualities which wouldn't be included in his summation. All are part of what it is to be human(and, incidentally, can be shown to be present in a variety of other animals).  It's no big deal and there is no evidence at all that there is the presence of any entity which cannot be explained by the workings of the brain.

[ekim]

I would say that it was obvious that people find many ways of expressing their natural qualities of Sriram's 'higher mind', e.g. through their social interaction, their culture, their natural instincts in certain situations. Some of these may be encouraged by methods of learning which might include meditation, schooling, emphasizing and praising individuals who show these qualities.

I would also remind you that I also suggested that those natural instincts also include the opposites of Sriram's 'higher mind' qualities.(see the first paragraph  of post 47)

As regards your comment on the pilot, it seems to me that you are making a gross simplification of what happened. For instance, I doubt if that pilot deliberately targeted German children, but, on the other hand, it seems he did deliberately target his plane away from the English children. Also, it might be that the powers that be of that time thought that the bombings over Germany would lead to eventual German surrender which they thought was a good thing, however right/wrong we may see their actions now.

The point I am making is that Sriram's 'higher mind' is as much a part of human nature as qualities which wouldn't be included in his summation. All are part of what it is to be human(and, incidentally, can be shown to be present in a variety of other animals).  It's no big deal and there is no evidence at all that there is the presence of any entity which cannot be explained by the workings of the brain.

OK, well I'll accept that what you say is based upon Sriram's interpretation of 'higher self', which I'll leave him answer.  It is not how I see the idea of Atman and the method's used to identify with that element said to be the essence of man.  The methods used tend to be about transcending what you call natural instincts which are generally used to support ego/self centred behaviour whether individualistic or collective.  As regards bombing raids, I should think that most pilots would be aware that such attacks result in what is euphemistically called collateral damage.  Often to overcome any moral squeamishness dehumanising words like 'the enemy' or 'target' is used and duty to your own group is emphasised.  Advanced technology aids and abets indiscriminate actions.  Whether,what goes under the heading of Atman, exists is up to the individual to discover if he or she is open to the possibility.  I am not optimistic that it will change the way the world is heading.  Srilanka is a part of the world exposed to such teachings but this article shows the limitations. ...... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/world/asia/sri-lanka-attacks-death-threats.html

[Enki]

OK, well I'll accept that what you say is based upon Sriram's interpretation of 'higher self', which I'll leave him answer.  It is not how I see the idea of Atman and the method's used to identify with that element said to be the essence of man.  The methods used tend to be about transcending what you call natural instincts which are generally used to support ego/self centred behaviour whether individualistic or collective.  As regards bombing raids, I should think that most pilots would be aware that such attacks result in what is euphemistically called collateral damage.  Often to overcome any moral squeamishness dehumanising words like 'the enemy' or 'target' is used and duty to your own group is emphasised.  Advanced technology aids and abets indiscriminate actions.  Whether,what goes under the heading of Atman, exists is up to the individual to discover if he or she is open to the possibility.  I am not optimistic that it will change the way the world is heading.  Srilanka is a part of the world exposed to such teachings but this article shows the limitations. ...... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/world/asia/sri-lanka-attacks-death-threats.html

Well, my original response was to what Sriram had actually said.

However, you asked for methods, I gave you some. In fact there is a school of thought, with some justification, that education is a major method for enlightening the mind to possibilities which you would no doubt call 'transcending our natural instincts' but which I would call using our innate ability to reflect upon what we do and potentially learn from our mistakes, as I referred to in my original post.

Hence, education can lead to a more balanced view of looking at things. As Steven Pinker suggests in his book 'Enlightenment Now'(p235):

You unlearn dangerous superstition, such as that leaders rule by divine right, or that people who do not look like you are less than human. You learn that there are other cultures that are as tied to their ways of life as you are to yours, and for no better or worse reason. You learn that charismatic saviors have led their countries to disaster. You learn that your own convictions, no matter how heartfelt or popular, may be mistaken. You learn that there are better and worse ways to live, and that other people and other cultures may know things that you don't. Not least, you learn that there are other ways of resolving conflicts without violence.

He goes on to suggest that studies on the effect of education suggest that educated people are 'less racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic and authoritarian.'

[Sriram]

When we say 'educated' it doesn't necessarily mean people who have gone through the modern schooling system and graduated from some university. 

Many people who have never finished school can be very wise and integrative. Many people with lofty degrees can be small minded and even scoundrels.

Education is about a state of mind and about perception. 

[Aruntraveller]

Education is about a state of mind and about perception. 

You are just redefining words to suit your own purposes now.

[ekim]

Well, my original response was to what Sriram had actually said.

However, you asked for methods, I gave you some. In fact there is a school of thought, with some justification, that education is a major method for enlightening the mind to possibilities which you would no doubt call 'transcending our natural instincts' but which I would call using our innate ability to reflect upon what we do and potentially learn from our mistakes, as I referred to in my original post.  Hence, education can lead to a more balanced view of looking at things. As Steven Pinker suggests in his book 'Enlightenment Now'(p235):
 
He goes on to suggest that studies on the effect of education suggest that educated people are 'less racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic and authoritarian.'

If I can pick out something from your first paragraph .... our innate ability to reflect ... is probably close to what Atman represents in the sense that it is inborn and relies upon consciousness and allows a 'balanced view' provided that it is not attached to conceptual or emotional elements of the mind.  The so called 'spiritual methods' tend to be stillness practices towards sustaining that inner state and identifying with it, rather than with the mental forms and forces that surrounds it and go to make up the ego/self.  As regards the Pinker quote, the House of Commons is full of well educated people but harmony doesn't seem to be much in evidence and  'racist, sexist, homophobic and authoritarian' elements still seem to arise.

[Enki]

Sriram,

When we say 'educated' it doesn't necessarily mean people who have gone through the modern schooling system and graduated from some university.

who is 'we' in this context? It certainly doesn't include me.  I'm with those 170 countries who signed up to a UN declaration that recognized education as a fundamental human right in 1966, and today education is compulsory in many countries. That's how importantly it is regarded.

Many people who have never finished school can be very wise and integrative. Many people with lofty degrees can be small minded and even scoundrels.

Of course. I would have thought that was obvious. If you bother to read my last sentence again,

He goes on to suggest that studies on the effect of education suggest that educated people are 'less racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic and authoritarian.'

then you would realise that these are tendencies that apply to most people, not every individual.

Education is about a state of mind and about perception.

That's your rather biased and idiosyncratic take on it, Sriram, probably because it fits in with your own preconceived ideas on how your version of the world works.

I'll stick with the Oxford dictionary definitions, if you don't mind:

The process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university.

1.1 The theory and practice of teaching.

1.2 A body of knowledge acquired while being educated.

1.3 Information about or training in a particular subject.

and disregard yours.

[Enki]

If I can pick out something from your first paragraph .... our innate ability to reflect ... is probably close to what Atman represents in the sense that it is inborn and relies upon consciousness and allows a 'balanced view' provided that it is not attached to conceptual or emotional elements of the mind.  The so called 'spiritual methods' tend to be stillness practices towards sustaining that inner state and identifying with it, rather than with the mental forms and forces that surrounds it and go to make up the ego/self.  As regards the Pinker quote, the House of Commons is full of well educated people but harmony doesn't seem to be much in evidence and  'racist, sexist, homophobic and authoritarian' elements still seem to arise.

Ekim,
If you want to use your idea of inner stillness, and techniques that encourage this state, then be my guest. I have nothing against them at all. I simply say that there are a variety of other methods which can achieve Sriram's desired 'higher self, many of them practical and mundane.

As regards the House of Commons, the hugely competitive atmosphere and the powerful tribalist forces at work within its precincts are, as I have already said, examples of the very qualities which are just as much present in the human pysche as Sriram's 'higher self'. Nevertheless, it has within my lifetime passed what I consider to be enlightened and important pieces of legislation at times.(E.g. same sex marriage, abortion laws, the creation of the N.H.S. abolition of the death penalty).

As regards the Pinker quote, he was talking about the tendency for education to reduce these harmful qualities, and, moreover, backed it up by pointing towards some studies which have been carried out to that effect.

[Bramble]

People have long admired honeybees for their extraordinary social cooperation. If only we could get along this well together. Despite being mere animals (and millions of years older than modern humans) the bees would appear to be model exemplars of what Sriram calls the ‘higher self’ and all without engaging in years of ‘objective techniques and methods’, yet the difference between our two species is down to genetics. Humans will never be like bees, even though we may look to them for ‘spiritual’ inspiration. Unlike us, bees are not busy wrecking the planet nor do they wage war on their own kind, and it is doubtful whether they occupy themselves with fantasies about living forever or transcending their own natures. Of course, they don’t send rockets to Mars or post comments on internet forums and most live for only a few weeks, but only in our eyes could that possibly diminish them. Perhaps the humble admiration of bees could be added to the list of methods by which humans might ennoble themselves while they still have time.

[Enki]

People have long admired honeybees for their extraordinary social cooperation. If only we could get along this well together. Despite being mere animals (and millions of years older than modern humans) the bees would appear to be model exemplars of what Sriram calls the ‘higher self’ and all without engaging in years of ‘objective techniques and methods’, yet the difference between our two species is down to genetics. Humans will never be like bees, even though we may look to them for ‘spiritual’ inspiration. Unlike us, bees are not busy wrecking the planet nor do they wage war on their own kind, and it is doubtful whether they occupy themselves with fantasies about living forever or transcending their own natures. Of course, they don’t send rockets to Mars or post comments on internet forums and most live for only a few weeks, but only in our eyes could that possibly diminish them. Perhaps the humble admiration of bees could be added to the list of methods by which humans might ennoble themselves while they still have time.

I like this.

[ekim]

One female egg producer with her harem of a few male drones and  masses of workers all dedicated to the offspring of the few, now that's altruism.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Bramble,

People have long admired honeybees for their extraordinary social cooperation. If only we could get along this well together. Despite being mere animals (and millions of years older than modern humans) the bees would appear to be model exemplars of what Sriram calls the ‘higher self’ and all without engaging in years of ‘objective techniques and methods’, yet the difference between our two species is down to genetics. Humans will never be like bees, even though we may look to them for ‘spiritual’ inspiration. Unlike us, bees are not busy wrecking the planet nor do they wage war on their own kind, and it is doubtful whether they occupy themselves with fantasies about living forever or transcending their own natures. Of course, they don’t send rockets to Mars or post comments on internet forums and most live for only a few weeks, but only in our eyes could that possibly diminish them. Perhaps the humble admiration of bees could be added to the list of methods by which humans might ennoble themselves while they still have time.

The problem with that is that our (and perhaps some other) species value individualism. If, say, you were to have a beautiful healthy baby and I were to say something like, “that’s lovely, but we have six very ill babes over here and if we harvest your baby’s organs those six will leave while yours will die” you (presumably) would object in the strongest terms whereas a bee concerned only with the collective good would not. 

In other words we could do as the bees do – but only at a huge and dehumanising cost. 

[Bramble]

Hi Bramble,
 

The problem with that is that our (and perhaps some other) species value individualism. If, say, you were to have a beautiful healthy baby and I were to say something like, “that’s lovely, but we have six very ill babes over here and if we harvest your baby’s organs those six will leave while yours will die” you (presumably) would object in the strongest terms whereas a bee concerned only with the collective good would not. 

In other words we could do as the bees do – but only at a huge and dehumanising cost.

Well, of course. We can admire them but, as I say, never be like them.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Bramble,

Well, of course. We can admire them but, as I say, never be like them.

Well, you did also say, "If only we could get along this well together" but OK. You also said, "Despite being mere animals...the bees would appear to be model exemplars of what Sriram calls the ‘higher self’". I'm not sure that we'd think of them as necessarily "higher" in the aspirational sense this implies at all, but that's a matter for Sriram I guess. 

Unlike us, bees are not busy wrecking the planet nor do they wage war on their own kind, and it is doubtful whether they occupy themselves with fantasies about living forever or transcending their own natures.

Again though, this implies something inherently "better' about bees. If miraculously overnight all predation of bees stopped we can't say though that they wouldn't become so dominant that they wouldn't evolve destructive behaviours too. They happen though to occupy a niche that prevents that, so they seem pretty benign. Our species on the other hand has no such boundaries - or at least not until the planet itself gives up on us - so we can and do behave as we please, no matter how destructive we are.
     

[jeremyp]

People have long admired honeybees for their extraordinary social cooperation. If only we could get along this well together. Despite being mere animals (and millions of years older than modern humans) the bees would appear to be model exemplars of what Sriram calls the ‘higher self’ and all without engaging in years of ‘objective techniques and methods’, yet the difference between our two species is down to genetics. Humans will never be like bees, even though we may look to them for ‘spiritual’ inspiration. Unlike us, bees are not busy wrecking the planet nor do they wage war on their own kind, and it is doubtful whether they occupy themselves with fantasies about living forever or transcending their own natures. Of course, they don’t send rockets to Mars or post comments on internet forums and most live for only a few weeks, but only in our eyes could that possibly diminish them. Perhaps the humble admiration of bees could be added to the list of methods by which humans might ennoble themselves while they still have time.

Well, if honey bees were to evolve an adaptation that made them so wildly successful that they destroyed the ecology of the planet, they would be unaware of the destruction they are wreaking. We, at least, have some measure of control of our destiny, even if sometimes it doesn't look like it.