End of life, or live forever!

[Sriram]

Well....

About the Higher Self....it is not just about cooperation and group behavior.  It is about compassion, wisdom, self awareness, universal perception,  foresight, selflessness....and much more. It is also about  a common consciousness that works from within all creatures. 

Taking our self awareness to the level of realizing the Higher self is the objective of spirituality.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Well.... 

About the Higher Self....it is not just about cooperation and group behavior.  It is about compassion, wisdom, self awareness, universal perception,  foresight, selflessness....and much more.

So the things most of us either do intuitively or strive to do anyway with no claim to “spirituality” at all then.

It is also about  a common consciousness that works from within all creatures.

What “common consciousness”? Clearly lots of organisms are conscious, and perhaps the brain architectures of those that are have some commonalities necessary for consciousness to exist at at all (though that’s debatable – consciousness may have evolved very differently, and multiple times too – just as, say, the eye has) but implying that we all tap in to some kind of universal property called “consciousness” is a collapse into woo again.   

Taking our self awareness to the level of realizing the Higher self is the objective of spirituality.

Or perhaps of just trying to behave as responsible citizens.

[Dicky Underpants]

Well....

About the Higher Self....it is not just about cooperation and group behavior.  It is about compassion, wisdom, self awareness, universal perception,  foresight, selflessness....and much more. It is also about  a common consciousness that works from within all creatures. 

Taking our self awareness to the level of realizing the Higher self is the objective of spirituality.

What is "universal perception"? Do you mean "being aware of everything in existence"? Or perhaps something a little less grandiose and achievable? Do you know of anyone who has achieved "Universal perception" (how would you know, unless you had it yourself anyway)?

[Sriram]

Universal perception means ...seeing the entire universe as one single unit and everything in it as parts of the whole.

[Sriram]

Sriram,

So the things most of us either do intuitively or strive to do anyway with no claim to “spirituality” at all then.

What “common consciousness”? Clearly lots of organisms are conscious, and perhaps the brain architectures of those that are have some commonalities necessary for consciousness to exist at at all (though that’s debatable – consciousness may have evolved very differently, and multiple times too – just as, say, the eye has) but implying that we all tap in to some kind of universal property called “consciousness” is a collapse into woo again.   

Or perhaps of just trying to behave as responsible citizens.

It doesn't matter how we understand it or what words we use to describe it.   As long as we become civilized, wise, compassionate and adopt a broad perspective....we will develop spiritually.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

It doesn't matter how we understand it or what words we use to describe it.   As long as we become civilized, wise, compassionate and adopt a broad perspective....we will develop spiritually.

I have no idea what you mean by "spiritually" and nor it seems have you. If we become more civilised, wise etc then we become more civilised, wise etc. The "spiritually" adds nothing - it's just white noise. 

[ippy]

Sriram,

I have no idea what you mean by "spiritually" and nor it seems have you. If we become more civilised, wise etc then we become more civilised, wise etc. The "spiritually" adds nothing - it's just white noise.

Like!

I wonder if Sriram's thinking is somewhere along the Gaia theory route? Even if it is this post of yours would still apply to Sriram's thoughts on the subject imo, anyway it's all by far, too much woo for me thank you very much.

Regards ippy

[SusanDoris]

It seems the word 'spiritual' is flung around haphazardly, randomly, anywwhere there's a gap into which it can be inserted,but when challenged, it is strange how few flingers can explain or define, even vaguely, what they mean. There's a lot of hand-waving,  and the assumption that atheists do not have it, or cannot know what it is, but that's it!!

I know what I mean - and have said so quite a few times if I remember correctly!

[ekim]

In my view spirit is a symbolic word that comes from Latin spiritus which means breath (of god), breeze or air, a symbol of life.  I believe both this and the Germanic word ghost are translations of the new testament Greek pneuma and the old testament Hebrew ruwach. 
If you try to look at the nature of air through the eyes of people of that period I would suggest it would have these qualities - it is invisible but you can see its effect when it animates something,  it is intangible but you can feel it when it moves towards you or you move towards it,  if you try to grasp it you lose it,  its source is unknown and yet it seems to be ever present,  if you don't get it into you (inspiration), you die (expire).  It's a short step from here to see that, perhaps, the Hebrew word neshama (translated as human soul) can mean breath, breathing, divine inspiration i.e. the breath of god in man, life.  Of course, then it's easy to imagine evil spirits as breezes that blow one off course.

'Spirituality' could then be seen as an inner quest to discover the essence of life and remain ever conscious (of it).  To do so, often entails inner stillness, sometimes called a centre of balance.  Mental activity and emotions tend to be disturbances which distract from the task.  To tie it to this topic, to remain ever conscious of the essence of life, is life eternal.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

In my view spirit is a symbolic word that comes from Latin spiritus which means breath (of god), breeze or air, a symbol of life.  I believe both this and the Germanic word ghost are translations of the new testament Greek pneuma and the old testament Hebrew ruwach. 
If you try to look at the nature of air through the eyes of people of that period I would suggest it would have these qualities - it is invisible but you can see its effect when it animates something,  it is intangible but you can feel it when it moves towards you or you move towards it,  if you try to grasp it you lose it,  its source is unknown and yet it seems to be ever present,  if you don't get it into you (inspiration), you die (expire).  It's a short step from here to see that, perhaps, the Hebrew word neshama (translated as human soul) can mean breath, breathing, divine inspiration i.e. the breath of god in man, life.  Of course, then it's easy to imagine evil spirits as breezes that blow one off course.

'Spirituality' could then be seen as an inner quest to discover the essence of life and remain ever conscious (of it).  To do so, often entails inner stillness, sometimes called a centre of balance.  Mental activity and emotions tend to be disturbances which distract from the task.  To tie it to this topic, to remain ever conscious of the essence of life, is life eternal.

All very Patience Strong for those who like that sort of faux profundity I suppose. I find though that those who say “I’m spiritual I am” expect to be treated as though they have some special insight, whereas we poor saps with feet of clay miss the deep wonders to which only they have access. Utter bollocks of course – to paraphrase Richard Feynman, a garden is no less beautiful to someone who knows about photosynthesis.   

[ekim]

ekim,

All very Patience Strong for those who like that sort of faux profundity I suppose. I find though that those who say “I’m spiritual I am” expect to be treated as though they have some special insight, whereas we poor saps with feet of clay miss the deep wonders to which only they have access. Utter bollocks of course – to paraphrase Richard Feynman, a garden is no less beautiful to someone who knows about photosynthesis.   

No profundity intended, false or otherwise.  It is just a view of how some of those engaged in 'spirituality' appear to support that view.  There are many people in many walks of life who claim special recognition, it often goes with egotism and attention seeking, something the 'spiritual' are supposed to eliminate or sacrifice.  Words like 'woo' utter bollocks', 'rubbish' are often emotional reactions expressed by those who think they are being talked down to, which is understandable.  A garden is no less beautiful to someone who also knows about spirituality but there are some who, when they see a rose, can only count the thorns.

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

No profundity intended, false or otherwise.

Not by you perhaps, but it is by those who assert themselves to be “spiritual”.   

It is just a view of how some of those engaged in 'spirituality' appear to support that view.  There are many people in many walks of life who claim special recognition, it often goes with egotism and attention seeking, something the 'spiritual' are supposed to eliminate or sacrifice.  Words like 'woo' utter bollocks', 'rubbish' are often emotional reactions expressed by those who think they are being talked down to, which is understandable.

In part, but for me at least it’s more a response to the inability of those who claim it to explain or demonstrate it but continue to assert it anyway (while telling the rest of us that we’re too lost in “microscopic thinking” or some such to grasp why they’re right). “Spiritual” actually seems to mean something like “tending to a strong emotional response to certain stimuli” but that’s never been unavailable to those who actually bother to understand those stimuli too.   

A garden is no less beautiful to someone who also knows about spirituality but there are some who, when they see a rose, can only count the thorns.

Who are those people? Something about the scientists and people of reason I admire most is that the best of them seem to me filled with a sense of wonder about the universe even as they go about investigating it. 

[SusanDoris]

No profundity intended, false or otherwise.  It is just a view of how some of those engaged in 'spirituality'

What does 'engaged in spirituality' mean, do you think?

, something the 'spiritual' are supposed to eliminate or sacrifice.

Who are these people,  'the spirituall'?

A garden is no less beautiful to someone who also knows about spirituality

And again here is this word spirituality. How does anyone 'know about spirituality'? Who are those who think they do and that others don't?

[ekim]

What does 'engaged in spirituality' mean, do you think? Who are these people,  'the spirituall'?And again here is this word spirituality. How does anyone 'know about spirituality'? Who are those who think they do and that others don't?

Firstly you should understand that what I say about this topic is what I think.  Other versions by other people are available.  As I tried to indicate in my previous post 'spirit' is a symbolic word intended to represent that which is believed to be within life forms and which is non physical and perhaps changeless and formless and therefor ineffable.  'Engaged in spirituality' would mean following an inner path, way or method said to facilitate the realisation of that belief as the truth or otherwise.  In this context, to know it is by consciously being it rather than thinking about it or conceptualising it.  'The spiritual' are those who follow such an 'inner path' as opposed to 'the religious' who follow a set doctrine.  Those who claim to know are probably more associated with the mystics and heretics rather than religious hierarchies and cant.

[SusanDoris]

Firstly you should understand that what I say about this topic is what I think.  Other versions by other people are available.  As I tried to indicate in my previous post 'spirit' is a symbolic word intended to represent that which is believed to be within life forms and which is non physical and perhaps changeless and formless and therefor ineffable.  'Engaged in spirituality' would mean following an inner path, way or method said to facilitate the realisation of that belief as the truth or otherwise.  In this context, to know it is by consciously being it rather than thinking about it or conceptualising it.  'The spiritual' are those who follow such an 'inner path' as opposed to 'the religious' who follow a set doctrine.  Those who claim to know are probably more associated with the mystics and heretics rather than religious hierarchies and cant.

Interesting - thank you. How do you think atheists fit in here?!

[Walter]

Firstly you should understand that what I say about this topic is what I think.  Other versions by other people are available.  As I tried to indicate in my previous post 'spirit' is a symbolic word intended to represent that which is believed to be within life forms and which is non physical and perhaps changeless and formless and therefor ineffable.  'Engaged in spirituality' would mean following an inner path, way or method said to facilitate the realisation of that belief as the truth or otherwise.  In this context, to know it is by consciously being it rather than thinking about it or conceptualising it.  'The spiritual' are those who follow such an 'inner path' as opposed to 'the religious' who follow a set doctrine.  Those who claim to know are probably more associated with the mystics and heretics rather than religious hierarchies and cant.

flippin' 'eck !   the last word of the paragraph stunned me for a moment there!!!

[ekim]

Interesting - thank you. How do you think atheists fit in here?!

If the intension is to test out the inner methods, which are often of the nature of meditation and/or devotion, this could be done without using religious terms like soul, spirit, god which are often so vague and nebulous anyway.  The expression 'well being' could be used if needed, as, perhaps, it invites the idea that it can arise from within rather than being dependant upon seeking its source in the outer world.

If the intension is to discuss theism, then I would suggest the ignostic approach, because unless somebody is clear about their meaning of God the discussions will be confused and circular.  For what it is worth, my view of the word 'God' comes from its origin as 'that which is to be invoked'.  I suspect that there were many gods because there were many circumstances or qualities which people had no control over and which they wanted to invoke or placate, so there were gods of love, luck, power, peace etc.  This probably became too much to manage, so one God came about with all the required qualities.  In the Qu'ran, for instance, there are 99 names of God but they are all really attributes.

[ekim]

flippin' 'eck !   the last word of the paragraph stunned me for a moment there!!!

It must be your Yorkshire accent. 

[Walter]

It must be your Yorkshire accent. 

actually ekim , it's spelt like a cockney would pronounce it . It certainly doesn't sound like that when a Yorkshireman says it 

[bluehillside Retd.]

ekim,

If the intension is to test out the inner methods, which are often of the nature of meditation and/or devotion, this could be done without using religious terms like soul, spirit, god which are often so vague and nebulous anyway.  The expression 'well being' could be used if needed, as, perhaps, it invites the idea that it can arise from within rather than being dependant upon seeking its source in the outer world.

But not if you want to attach the word “spiritual” to whatever techniques you want to use to improve wellbeing. As I understand it, those who use that word often think it to refer to something non-natural, working outside of the laws of physics and chemistry etc. In other words, for them “spiritual” is in the same category as “god”, “soul” etc. 

If the intension is to discuss theism, then I would suggest the ignostic approach, because unless somebody is clear about their meaning of God the discussions will be confused and circular.  For what it is worth, my view of the word 'God' comes from its origin as 'that which is to be invoked'.  I suspect that there were many gods because there were many circumstances or qualities which people had no control over and which they wanted to invoke or placate, so there were gods of love, luck, power, peace etc.  This probably became too much to manage, so one God came about with all the required qualities.  In the Qu'ran, for instance, there are 99 names of God but they are all really attributes.

By the same token, perhaps the proper response to claims of spirituality is ig-spirituality – ie, “when you say you’re spiritual I have no idea what you mean but that, and nor it seems have you”. 

[Dicky Underpants]

flippin' 'eck !   the last word of the paragraph stunned me for a moment there!!!

Have you not studied the venerable Kunt?

[bluehillside Retd.]

DU,

Have you not studied the venerable Kunt?

Or sung the innumerable uplifting hymns composed by Fanny Crosby?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby

[Walter]

DU,

Or sung the innumerable uplifting hymns composed by Fanny Crosby?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby

you can't beat a bit of Fanny!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Walter,

you can't beat a bit of Fanny!

Reminds me of the late Fanny Craddock and her cookery programmes. Husband Johnny got quietly tanked in the background, but he always got the sign-off line...

...one of which was the never to be be forgotten, "Well thank you for joining us everyone, and may all your fairy cakes taste just like Fanny's".   

[Walter]

Walter,

Reminds me of the late Fanny Craddock and her cookery programmes. Husband Johnny got quietly tanked in the background, but he always got the sign-off line...

...one of which was the never to be be forgotten, "Well thank you for joining us everyone, and may all your fairy cakes taste like Fanny's". 

aww c'mon you just made that up . Brilliant !