Beyond Science

[Sriram]

I think it is important to be as precise as possible with the words used and indicate how they are used in conjunction with the end product of what you think 'spiritual' practices are aimed at.  In your opening post you have already used the word 'yoga', which to Walter means physical exercise.  If you had explained that it meant 'union' and that there are a variety of methods towards that 'union', one of which is hathayoga, it might have saved the confusion.  'Religion' is probably a different concept to 'union' as it come from the Latin verb 'to rebind', which possibly links it to the idea of a fall from grace or Heaven and the need to rebind through a saviour and repentance.  This is not quite the same as Mukti or Moksha ... liberation.  However, if you think you will complicate matters even more using Hindu concepts then I wish you the best of luck.

You are going into lot of detail. I don't think Walter or any of the others here are interested or even mentally prepared to understand any such detail about spirituality, much less Hinduism.  It is all just a lot of 'woo' to them. Their minds are completely closed to such matters.

What I have been trying to make people here understand in a general way,  is that there are lots of things besides material and measurable phenomena that need to be understood. All this is usually brushed off as imagination or wishful thinking by these people.  That is all it is about.

[Roses]

You are going into lot of detail. I don't think Walter or any of the others here are interested or even mentally prepared to understand any such detail about spirituality, much less Hinduism.  It is all just a lot of 'woo' to them. Their minds are completely closed to such matters.

What I have been trying to make people here understand in a general way,  is that there are lots of things besides material and measurable phenomena that need to be understood. All this is usually brushed off as imagination or wishful thinking by these people.  That is all it is about.

If your philosophy does it for you that is ok, but you aren't doing yourself any favours by trying to force it down the throats of people who don't see it your way.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

It obviously won't work with microscopic thinkers.  With others it will.  Unfortunately, there may not be many or any, here!

FIFY

[Maeght]

I agree with that. And that is why I say that it cannot be used everywhere. You can't use a screwdriver for everything. It has its specific uses.

But many people use science as a philosophy to support their materialistic mindset. That is not correct. Science offers insights only within a certain range of reality. Its methods cannot be used everywhere.

Then why not address materialism, since this is the philosophy section?

[Walter]

You are going into lot of detail. I don't think Walter or any of the others here are interested or even mentally prepared to understand any such detail about spirituality, much less Hinduism.  It is all just a lot of 'woo' to them. Their minds are completely closed to such matters.

What I have been trying to make people here understand in a general way,  is that there are lots of things besides material and measurable phenomena that need to be understood. All this is usually brushed off as imagination or wishful thinking by these people.  That is all it is about.

Sriram

it seems to be all about feelings , your feelings ,your intuition . I don't have those feelings so I cant have a conversation about them until I understand what you're talking about . You might as well be speaking in an alien language and until I have a translation we cant converse .
But simply insisting its my fault for not getting it rather than you explaining it properly ,then we are going nowhere .

I'm sure you are very frustrated with all this and so am I so give me something, some evidence or good examples and we can take it from there

[Sriram]

Sriram

it seems to be all about feelings , your feelings ,your intuition . I don't have those feelings so I cant have a conversation about them until I understand what you're talking about . You might as well be speaking in an alien language and until I have a translation we cant converse .
But simply insisting its my fault for not getting it rather than you explaining it properly ,then we are going nowhere .

I'm sure you are very frustrated with all this and so am I so give me something, some evidence or good examples and we can take it from there

Hi Walter,

I am so glad that you at least want to understand. That is much more than what most others here want.   

I am not frustrated here simply because I have been at this thing for 20 long years.  I can easily find dozens of other sites where people will not only understand what I say but will also wholeheartedly agree with it. I am not interested in that.

I continue here because people disagree with me.  It gives me the balance that I want.  It makes me think of ways by which I can try to bridge the gap that I see between peoples perception of the material world and peoples perception of the subtle spiritual world. That is all I am trying to work towards.

About making you understand...well....we can certainly work on that, but its not easy.  All of us have a certain mental make up based on our genes, epigenes, upbringing and culture. That will not change. Even if it does, it will take decades of introspection and study for any significant change to happen.

As I have said many times, it is not about information. Its about perception. The way we look at something.  Take gravity for example. Its been there all along and everyone has experienced it for thousands of years, but it took Newton to think of it as a separate force exerted by the earth and then to generalize it to all other bodies. Its not about some strange, new and external force that no one has experienced.  Its about making certain connections and observing certain patterns that exist all around us.

I promote spirituality. But that's a word many people don't understand. Each person has his own take on it. Also, most western people (including atheists) have this religious baggage that they have picked up from the Abrahamic religions.  So, whatever is discussed, they inevitable filter according to that baggage.

But there is hope still that some day a common philosophy will emerge that everyone...religious people, philosophers, atheists, scientists... can accept and agree as the possible total philosophy of life for everyone and everything (including animals).   

If you want to have an idea of what I mean by spirituality as different from religion, try this article.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/spirituality-and-religion/

More next  time.

Cheers.

Sriram

[Roses]

Hi Walter,

I am so glad that you at least want to understand. That is much more than what most others here want.   

I am not frustrated here simply because I have been at this thing for 20 long years.  I can easily find dozens of other sites where people will not only understand what I say but will also wholeheartedly agree with it. I am not interested in that.

I continue here because people disagree with me.  It gives me the balance that I want.  It makes me think of ways by which I can try to bridge the gap that I see between peoples perception of the material world and peoples perception of the subtle spiritual world. That is all I am trying to work towards.

About making you understand...well....we can certainly work on that, but its not easy.  All of us have a certain mental make up based on our genes, epigenes, upbringing and culture. That will not change. Even if it does, it will take decades of introspection and study for any significant change to happen.

As I have said many times, it is not about information. Its about perception. The way we look at something.  Take gravity for example. Its been there all along and everyone has experienced it for thousands of years, but it took Newton to think of it as a separate force exerted by the earth and then to generalize it to all other bodies. Its not about some strange, new and external force that no one has experienced.  Its about making certain connections and observing certain patterns that exist all around us.

I promote spirituality. But that's a word many people don't understand. Each person has his own take on it. Also, most western people (including atheists) have this religious baggage that they have picked up from the Abrahamic religions.  So, whatever is discussed, they inevitable filter according to that baggage.

But there is hope still that some day a common philosophy will emerge that everyone...religious people, philosophers, atheists, scientists... can accept and agree as the possible total philosophy of life for everyone and everything (including animals).   

If you want to have an idea of what I mean by spirituality as different from religion, try this article.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/spirituality-and-religion/

More next  time.

Cheers.

Sriram

As I have said before if it does the business for you to think as you do, that is fair enough.  I will never see it your way, and as you cannot produce any evidence to back up your claims, you will never persuade me otherwise.

[SteveH]

As I have said before if it does the business for you to think as you do, that is fair enough.  I will never see it your way, and as you cannot produce any evidence to back up your claims, you will never persuade me otherwise.

...says the woman who never produces any evidence to back up her claims.

[Roses]

...says the woman who never produces any evidence to back up her claims.

And for which claims haven't I produced any evidence?

[SteveH]

And for which claims haven't I produced any evidence?

Just off the top of my head: that making cycle helmets and hi-viz vests compulsory, as you advocate, would make a difference to injury statistics significant enough to justify the encroachment on individual liberty (or indeed at all).

[Roses]

Just off the top of my head: that making cycle helmets and hi-viz vests compulsory, as you advocate, would make a difference to injury statistics significant enough to justify the encroachment on individual liberty (or indeed at all).

When I am driving it is easy to see the cyclists, of whom there are many around here, who are wearing hi viz jackets, much harder to see those who aren't. If you are wearing a helmet, you have more protection for your head than if you aren't. Would you say it is an encroachment on individual liberty that motor cyclists are required to wear helmets?

[SteveH]

When I am driving it is easy to see the cyclists, of whom there are many around here, who are wearing hi viz jackets, much harder to see those who aren't. If you are wearing a helmet, you have more protection for your head than if you aren't. Would you say it is an encroachment on individual liberty that motor cyclists are required to wear helmets?

Motor-cycling is a completely different issue. Motor-bikes are much more dangerous than cyclesor other forms of transport, by orders of magnitude. Cycle helmets, as statistics reveal, do not make a significant difference to safety, and anyway, road cycling is not dangerous.
However, the point is that you provided just the bald statement that you think they should be compulsory, with no argument or evidence, just your usual "imo", which you seem to think is an argument in itself. Therfore, you are in no position to criticise others for not producing evidence.

[Roses]

Motor-cycling is a completely different issue. Motor-bikes are much more dangerous than cyclesor other forms of transport, by orders of magnitude. Cycle helmets, as statistics reveal, do not make a significant difference to safety, and anyway, road cycling is not dangerous.
However, the point is that you provided just the bald statement that you think they should be compulsory, with no argument or evidence, just your usual "imo", which you seem to think is an argument in itself. Therfore, you are in no position to criticise others for not producing evidence.

Well have it your own way, if you have a bad accident because you are not seen by a car, you have only yourself to blame, if you are not wearing appropriate clothing, imo.

[Walter]

Hi Walter,

I am so glad that you at least want to understand. That is much more than what most others here want.   

I am not frustrated here simply because I have been at this thing for 20 long years.  I can easily find dozens of other sites where people will not only understand what I say but will also wholeheartedly agree with it. I am not interested in that.

I continue here because people disagree with me.  It gives me the balance that I want.  It makes me think of ways by which I can try to bridge the gap that I see between peoples perception of the material world and peoples perception of the subtle spiritual world. That is all I am trying to work towards.

About making you understand...well....we can certainly work on that, but its not easy.  All of us have a certain mental make up based on our genes, epigenes, upbringing and culture. That will not change. Even if it does, it will take decades of introspection and study for any significant change to happen.

As I have said many times, it is not about information. Its about perception. The way we look at something.  Take gravity for example. Its been there all along and everyone has experienced it for thousands of years, but it took Newton to think of it as a separate force exerted by the earth and then to generalize it to all other bodies. Its not about some strange, new and external force that no one has experienced.  Its about making certain connections and observing certain patterns that exist all around us.

I promote spirituality. But that's a word many people don't understand. Each person has his own take on it. Also, most western people (including atheists) have this religious baggage that they have picked up from the Abrahamic religions.  So, whatever is discussed, they inevitable filter according to that baggage.

But there is hope still that some day a common philosophy will emerge that everyone...religious people, philosophers, atheists, scientists... can accept and agree as the possible total philosophy of life for everyone and everything (including animals).   

If you want to have an idea of what I mean by spirituality as different from religion, try this article.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/spirituality-and-religion/

More next  time.

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram
that was a bit more than I was expecting .
Let's start simple , give me a working example of what you're  professing to be real and true and then we can analyse it together .
thanks

[Udayana]

Sriram
that was a bit more than I was expecting .
Let's start simple , give me a working example of what you're  professing to be real and true and then we can analyse it together .
thanks

Analyze? That is like dragging out a vampire to have a good look in the light

[Walter]

Analyze? That is like dragging out a vampire to have a good look in the light

nice one 

[Sriram]

Sriram
that was a bit more than I was expecting .
Let's start simple , give me a working example of what you're  professing to be real and true and then we can analyse it together .
thanks

Hi Walter,

Here we go again!       

There is no 'working example' for what I am talking about. Either you see it or you don't. Simple as that.

Ok...let us start with a simple discussion...

What do you think is currently 'beyond science'...if at all anything? Have you read through my link in the OP? What is your opinion of it (Don't just brush it off with...'I think it is all rubbish'. That means you fail!).   

From my side let me say that...I have no arguments against evolution, cosmology, QM, genetics etc. I know all these findings and hypotheses/theories of science are true.

[Walter]

Hi Walter,

Here we go again!       

There is no 'working example' for what I am talking about. Either you see it or you don't. Simple as that.

Ok...let us start with a simple discussion...

What do you think is currently 'beyond science'...if at all anything? Have you read through my link in the OP? What is your opinion of it (Don't just brush it off with...'I think it is all rubbish'. That means you fail!).   

From my side let me say that...I have no arguments against evolution, cosmology, QM, genetics etc. I know all these findings and hypotheses/theories of science are true.

Sriram

Yes, I've read your link and it begs the question ; why do YOU think there IS something more when I don't .?
I personally have never had any inkling that there is . As far back as I can remember I have never had any religious feelings although I had religious studies at school and was reprimanded once for not saying the lords prayer at around age 9 and couldn't understand this need to pray .

I became aware of other kids who believed in ghosts and the like but I never did and to cut a long story short I have spent much of my lifetime wondering what it is about people that causes them to 'believe' rather than look for reality and try to understand it
As a young kid I was  fascinated by nature  ,then as I got older I studied sciences (maths ,physics ,chemistry ,biology ) then narrowed it down to just physics .

Not once during all that time did I feel there was something else I was missing about the nature of the universe  .

So I'm interested to understand why you do .

please give an example of what I'm missing

thanks

[Maeght]

Took the words out of my mouth Walter.

[Enki]

Well said, Walter. I find myself in strong agreement with you.

[SusanDoris]

Took the words out of my mouth Walter.

If I had  been born twenty or thirty years later, I would be saying  the same.

[Aruntraveller]

Either you see it or you don't. Simple as that.

The King of wishful thinking.

A great song.

[Sriram]

Sriram

Yes, I've read your link and it begs the question ; why do YOU think there IS something more when I don't .?
I personally have never had any inkling that there is . As far back as I can remember I have never had any religious feelings although I had religious studies at school and was reprimanded once for not saying the lords prayer at around age 9 and couldn't understand this need to pray .

I became aware of other kids who believed in ghosts and the like but I never did and to cut a long story short I have spent much of my lifetime wondering what it is about people that causes them to 'believe' rather than look for reality and try to understand it
As a young kid I was  fascinated by nature  ,then as I got older I studied sciences (maths ,physics ,chemistry ,biology ) then narrowed it down to just physics .

Not once during all that time did I feel there was something else I was missing about the nature of the universe  .

So I'm interested to understand why you do .

please give an example of what I'm missing

thanks

Hi Walter,

If you have read the article 'Beyond Science' completely and the one on 'Spirituality and Religion', They together explain why I think there are many phenomena that science does not and probably will not be able to explain.  If you haven't read them through, please read them again patiently and without dismissing them off hand.  It is too involved a discussion for me to elaborate on on this board.

If you think I am going to share with you some secret formula or information which will make you 'see' why I believe what I believe, you are going to be disappointed.  That is not possible.

It is just some part of your brain/mind 'opening up' and then suddenly you perceive everything differently. You suddenly see the same world as part of a grand design and  you see Consciousness everywhere.

It is not about God or religious mythology. You don't have to believe in God or any of the religious scriptures. You just have to shed the microscopic mind and you will see it.

For starters, what do you think of Consciousness and the Unconscious mind? 

[Walter]

Hi Walter,

If you have read the article 'Beyond Science' completely and the one on 'Spirituality and Religion', They together explain why I think there are many phenomena that science does not and probably will not be able to explain.  If you haven't read them through, please read them again patiently and without dismissing them off hand.  It is too involved a discussion for me to elaborate on on this board.

If you think I am going to share with you some secret formula or information which will make you 'see' why I believe what I believe, you are going to be disappointed.  That is not possible.

It is just some part of your brain/mind 'opening up' and then suddenly you perceive everything differently. You suddenly see the same world as part of a grand design and  you see Consciousness everywhere.

It is not about God or religious mythology. You don't have to believe in God or any of the religious scriptures. You just have to shed the microscopic mind and you will see it.

For starters, what do you think of Consciousness and the Unconscious mind?

well, I tried but to no avail .

I gave you a perfect opportunity to give just one example we could investigate together on here but no . Referring me back to stuff you've already written will only take us in circles .

That's just lazy , besides I have no respect for your articles anyway .

So , last chance, give me an example you have personally experienced or risk ridicule for anything else you might pronounce on the subject .

thank you.

[Sriram]

Don't be silly Walter! 

You don't want to read what I have written. You don't want to discuss what I ask you about. You want some silly example of something you will never understand ....and you are now giving me a 'last chance' to prove myself.  What??!!  Really??!!        Which world are you in?

I am not  putting up anything here for your or anyone else's  approval!   You have a bloody cheek!! Giving me a last chance indeed! Ha...Ha!