Religion Instinct?!

[Walter]

You need a gravity meter to know that gravity exists and a light meter to know that light exists??!!    Really??!!   Ooh...You are taking dependence on instruments to another level altogether.

Well...since you seem to need meters to even identify and measure your own emotions, you just have to wait till someone invents a Aura meter, I suppose. 

Sriram

only people without an in-built bullshit-o-meter can detect 'Auras'

Or the gullibility is strong with you!

[Enki]

Sriram,

I experience auras, have done for many years. In fact I experienced one only three days ago. They are often preceded by  periods of concentration and focus, and I often get a feeling of warmth and relaxation just before one begins. My auras take the form of visual distortions, and are quickly followed by a period of moving and flickering light, often in the form of a semi circle.  They are not a fault of my eyesight because both my eyes are involved equally. I know that many other people experience these auras too, but not everyone.

Now this could be because my brain has the facility at times to spot energy disturbances in the surrounding ether where others have not this ability. In my case however, as with the large number of other cases similar to mine, there is not the slightest evidence that this is so. On the other hand there is a scientific explanation with mounting evidence that it is purely a neurological phenomenon aasociated with migraines, often called aural migraines. This, unless evidence accrues to the contrary, I am happy to accept.

Why do you dismiss out of hand the distinct possibility that your aura experiences are not the result of neurological activity? There is no evidence whatever that they are a reflection of some sort of mind existing outside your brain. All you have to go on is that you experience something, and that others also experience something similar too. Why would you reject the idea that it is due to neurological activity, rather than some sort of unknown energy? You could at least say that the jury is out, and that we don't have enough evidence yet to come to any conclusion. That might well be a rational way of approaching it.

Unfortunately, I simply read your posts as a simple list of assertions with no real attempt to answer valid questions and furthermore imbued, it seems, with some sort of arrogance which seeks to dismiss other points of view as having no significance whatever.

[Sriram]

Ok guys.

I have said everything I have to say on this subject.  Your questions will be never ending and you are not going to understand any of the answers. 

I am not responsible for the programming in your minds or your memes that fear for their survival.   You sort it out in your heads.

I am however glad the board is buzzing along nicely. 

Have fun.

Sriram 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

I have said everything I have to say on this subject.

So you still don’t want address your mistakes in reasoning that others have taken the time to explain to you then?     

Your questions will be never ending…

Not never-ending, just ignored.

…and you are not going to understand any of the answers.

To the contrary, the rationalists here understand your "answers" much better than you do. That’s your problem. 

I am not responsible for the programming in your minds or your memes that fear for their survival.   You sort it out in your heads.

The only “programming” your interlocutors have is to prefer reason and evidence over unqualified assertion to distinguish the probably true from the probably not true. You on the other hand seem to me to be entirely “programmed” to accept the cultural superstitions with which you happen to be most familiar in place of explanations that withstand any scrutiny.

The disastrously wrong arguments you attempt to validate your beliefs are in other words still disastrously wrong no matter how emotionally wedded you are to their outcomes. 

[Stranger]

I have said everything I have to say on this subject.  Your questions will be never ending and you are not going to understand any of the answers. 

The questions have remained finite and unchanging. The problem is that you've not even attempted to answer them - just repeating your empty assertions.

I am not responsible for the programming in your minds or your memes that fear for their survival.   You sort it out in your heads.

Once again the arrogant pretence that your failure to justify your assertions is a problem for those who question them.

Ho hum.

[ippy]

Ok guys.

I have said everything I have to say on this subject.  Your questions will be never ending and you are not going to understand any of the answers. 

I am not responsible for the programming in your minds or your memes that fear for their survival.   You sort it out in your heads.

I am however glad the board is buzzing along nicely. 

Have fun.

Sriram

The way you're using unsupported assertions in your posts are in some way similar to a hypnotism stage act where the hypnotist has arranged to pick on a person/victim taken from the audience is convinced that there is no such thing as number three when counting from one to ten, after having been hypnotised.

Cheers.

[jeremyp]

Hi everyone,

Frankly, I don't know what this discussion is about anymore.....

Let me clarify my point.

ippy had raised the matter about how he moves into a house after identifying how he 'feels' about it.  That is a very common occurrence, perhaps in all countries. Almost everyone does that. 

While most of you would dismiss it as just a feeling (based on external conditions that we sense), I and most people like me would attribute it to the Aura that exists in and around us (in addition to normal sensory matters. They have their contribution too). 

Now...what is this aura?

1. It is not a religious belief.  Let us get that clear.  Nor is it anything 'supernatural' or something connected to God or Jesus or angels..... It is a natural part of our being.

2. The Aura is a energy system that exists everywhere connecting all objects, similar to the magnetic field.  It also has its individual component just as individual magnets have their own magnetism, which is our individual aura.

3. This energy system keeps moving about in and around us all the time and is the principle component of what we call the Mind. It connects to the brain and other organs and influences physiological reactions. The Mind is not just brain generated.  The Aura is deeply connected with the body also (Mind - body connection).

4. The movement of the energies in the Aura decides our health and mental makeup at any point of time.

5. What is the Aura and what is its chemical composition, specific gravity etc. etc.?  No Idea. No one knows any great detail about it. We only know that it exists all around us and influences us in various ways, as part of our mind.

6.  How do I know it exists? I can feel it around me all the time and sometimes even see it visually. So can many others. Nothing extraordinary or 'supernatural'about all this.  No need to go all 'Ooh..haa' about it. Just as I can feel my body, I can feel the Aura also. I can feel it expanding and depleting at various times.  I have always felt it from as far back as I can remember. I learnt about it much later and started working on it. 

7. The Aura obviously (mind - body) influences the body and generates chemical changes that make the body behave in certain ways. The body in turn influences the Aura and any changes in the health or chemical balance of the body can change the aura. Besides normal medication, working on the chakras and energizing them can add to health benefits.

8. How can anyone know about it? Well...if you can't feel it around you, you can learn about it in Yoga (or Pranic healing) classes. Its easy.

9. Why don't people know about it normally? We don't know about our brain, liver, kidneys and lungs also...till we learn about them.  Its the same.

Evidence please. 

10. Why hasn't science found out anything about it?

Because it vanishes as soon as anybody tries to do a systematic study of it.

Science did not find gravity waves till very recently.  Does not mean they didn't exist all along.  X-rays and Gamma rays have always existed but we did not know about them till recent centuries. Even now we don't know anything about Dark Matter or Dark Energy....and many other things.

But we find out about these things because they have an effect on stuff. They are observable.

You people can keep battering on and on about evidence,

You don't get it do you. When we ask for evidence, we are asking you to show it is not made up. When you say "I don't need evidence" you are saying "it is made up".

[Spud]

Just as I can feel my body, I can feel the Aura also. I can feel it expanding and depleting at various times.  I have always felt it from as far back as I can remember

What is it's frequency?

[Sriram]

Evidence please. 

Because it vanishes as soon as anybody tries to do a systematic study of it.

But we find out about these things because they have an effect on stuff. They are observable.

You don't get it do you. When we ask for evidence, we are asking you to show it is not made up. When you say "I don't need evidence" you are saying "it is made up".

Yeah...yeah...yeah. I get it! I get it!

Since you guys seem to need gravity meters to detect gravity and light meters to detect light....I can see your problem...!!  Ha! Ha! Ha!

My point about you guys lacking certain faculties gets emphasized, much more.....!    Yes...I do understand and....sympathize. 

[Stranger]

Yeah...yeah...yeah. I get it! I get it!

Since you guys seem to need gravity meters to detect gravity and light meters to detect light....I can see your problem...!!  Ha! Ha! Ha!

My point about you guys lacking certain faculties gets emphasized, much more.....!    Yes...I do understand and....sympathize. 

Wow - do calm down!

Actually you don't seem to get it at all. This is both a misrepresentation and yet another attempt to insult and belittle instead of actually engaging with the points raised (a straw man and an ad hominem).

I suggest you take a step back, calm down, stop making assumptions, and try thinking about what has actually been said to you - assuming you have the intellectual courage to do so.

[Spud]

Hi Susan,

It's because a book he's decided must be correct tells him so. Only he doesn't care much about some of these "sins" (wearing mixed fibres, gathering kindling on the sabbath, eating shellfish etc) so he's not so fussed about those. Other of these "sins" that play to his preferences and prejudices on the other hand he cares about quite a bit, so he'll judge you harshly if you do them.

And yes there really are people like that still in the 21st century. Extraordinary isn't it?

Prohibition of wearing mixed fibres or eating shellfish was a bit like wearing a uniform. The idea was to distinguish the people of Israel from the other nations. The ten commandments were moral laws that apply to all people.

[ekim]

Sriram,

I experience auras, have done for many years. In fact I experienced one only three days ago. They are often preceded by  periods of concentration and focus, and I often get a feeling of warmth and relaxation just before one begins. My auras take the form of visual distortions, and are quickly followed by a period of moving and flickering light, often in the form of a semi circle.  They are not a fault of my eyesight because both my eyes are involved equally. I know that many other people experience these auras too, but not everyone.

Now this could be because my brain has the facility at times to spot energy disturbances in the surrounding ether where others have not this ability. In my case however, as with the large number of other cases similar to mine, there is not the slightest evidence that this is so. On the other hand there is a scientific explanation with mounting evidence that it is purely a neurological phenomenon aasociated with migraines, often called aural migraines. This, unless evidence accrues to the contrary, I am happy to accept.

Has any scientist looked for evidence for an external stimulus?  Is there any evidence as to what initiated the associated migraine?  As it is your experience do you just wait for somebody else to provide the evidence of have you looked for it yourself?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Yeah...yeah...yeah. I get it! I get it!

If you actually do “get it” – ie, get that any attempt you make to validate your claim “aura” is logically disastrous so all you’re left with is unqualified assertion, why won’t you ever engage with your problem?

Since you guys seem to need gravity meters to detect gravity and light meters to detect light....I can see your problem...!!  Ha! Ha! Ha!

Why are you so determined to make a fool of yourself? Gravity is observable to anyone who drops a pebble on the ground. Its cause though is described by the theory of gravity, which means we can discount the notion that it’s actually invisible pixies puling stuff down with very thin strings that are doing it.

Your notion “aura” on the other hand is apparent only to a culturally aligned few, experientially has many “real world” possible causes other than auras that you have no interest in considering, and is epistemically precisely equivalent to the invisible pixies with very thin strings conjecture.

Does any of that seem problematic to you?

Anything at all?
 

My point about you guys lacking certain faculties gets emphasized, much more.....!       Yes...I do understand and....sympathize.   

Classic Dunning Kruger:

“In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. It is related to the cognitive bias of  illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.[1]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[Enki]

Has any scientist looked for evidence for an external stimulus?  Is there any evidence as to what initiated the associated migraine?  As it is your experience do you just wait for somebody else to provide the evidence of have you looked for it yourself?

My aural migraines started at least 40 years ago, Ekim. I immediately went to see a doctor, who ruled out such things as strokes or seizures and suggested that I had been having an aural migraine. He also suggested that it was surprisingly common and that, as I didn't suffer any accompanying headache, it really wasn't anything to worry too much about.I researched the subject as far as I was able of course(long before the internet existed) and found as much about it as possible. Over the years I have learned to live with it and it doesn't really cause me too many problems. Occasionally, after the aural phase has disappeared, I can get a slight headache, seemingly situated behind the eyes, but this is very uncommon. People with full blown migraines often get the aural phase too, but that is quickly followed by a debilitating and severe headache of course.

Although it might well be that there is a genetic link to migraines(including the aural part), there have been suggested a number of external stimuli which might well set one off such as eating certain foods(e.g. chocolate), too little sleep/too much sleep, also menstruation(not very likely in my case). In my case, as I have already suggested, they tend to occur after a period of intense concentration, when I have become relaxed. If on the other hand you mean by external stimuli some sort of outside phenomena which the eyes can in some way observe at these times, then I doubt if any research has gone into this because there is not the slightest evidence that such outside phenomena exist. On the other hand if you have some evidence then I suggest that you immediately approach the relevant science authorities and present it to them for analysis.

Although the causes of aural migraines are only partly understood, they seem to be associated with some sort of electrical wave which interferes with the signals from the visual cortex.

I keep reasonably up to date on information on migraines generally, as I have a sister who suffers from fully blown migraine headaches. Recent research is producing drugs which are much more powerful than they used to be.

[Sriram]

Migrane aura is to do with visual disturbances. Flashes of light, colour patterns and so on.  It is just called an 'aura'. Just because it is the same word does not mean it is the same thing.

What I am talking about has nothing to do with visual disturbances. It is about feeling energy movement in and around me as part of the body. It is a stable situation not something sudden. The feeling is almost permanent and does not in any way cause me any disturbance. 

Sometimes (if I focus) I can also visually see the movement of energies. It is not a disturbance or any flash of light.  It is just a part of myself (or someone else).  Like you might feel a piece of clothing on yourself or see it on someone else.  My vision is just fine and I have no headaches.

Maybe this does not fit in with any phenomenon  known to you but that does not mean you can explain it away casually as though you know everything about everything.  I know what I experience and what it means.

[Stranger]

Sometimes (if I focus) I can also visually see the movement of energies. It is not a disturbance or any flash of light.  It is just a part of myself (or someone else).  Like you might feel a piece of clothing on yourself or see it on someone else.  My vision is just fine and I have no headaches.

Maybe this does not fit in with any phenomenon  known to you but that does not mean you can explain it away casually as though you know everything about everything.  I know what I experience and what it means.

You may know what you experience, and I doubt that anybody would question it, but as to what it means, that just seems to be your own (culturally influenced) interpretation. If you want people to accept that you, and others who make similar claims, are really sensing something objectively real, you need to accept the need for objective evidence.

As I pointed out before, attempts to objectively test people's claims of being able to sense auras have failed (see here, for example).

People who want objective evidence before accepting the objective reality of a phenomenon are not claiming to "know everything about everything" - quite the reverse - it comes from a desire to know more about the world.

[Enki]

Migrane aura is to do with visual disturbances. Flashes of light, colour patterns and so on.  It is just called an 'aura'. Just because it is the same word does not mean it is the same thing.

What I am talking about has nothing to do with visual disturbances. It is about feeling energy movement in and around me as part of the body. It is a stable situation not something sudden. The feeling is almost permanent and does not in any way cause me any disturbance. 

Sometimes (if I focus) I can also visually see the movement of energies. It is not a disturbance or any flash of light.  It is just a part of myself (or someone else).  Like you might feel a piece of clothing on yourself or see it on someone else.  My vision is just fine and I have no headaches.

Maybe this does not fit in with any phenomenon  known to you but that does not mean you can explain it away casually as though you know everything about everything.  I know what I experience and what it means.

I didn't say it was the same thing, Sriram, if you had bothered to read post 201 properly you would have realised this and you would have perhaps seen the significance of the third paragraph(which,true to form, you didn't bother to answer).

I'll repeat it anyway:

Why do you dismiss out of hand the distinct possibility that your aura experiences are not the result of neurological activity? There is no evidence whatever that they are a reflection of some sort of mind existing outside your brain. All you have to go on is that you experience something, and that others also experience something similar too. Why would you reject the idea that it is due to neurological activity, rather than some sort of unknown energy? You could at least say that the jury is out, and that we don't have enough evidence yet to come to any conclusion. That might well be a rational way of approaching it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Maybe this does not fit in with any phenomenon  known to you but that does not mean you can explain it away casually as though you know everything about everything.

Could you at least try to be a little less dishonest in future? No-one seeks to “explain it away casually” and no-one claims to know everything about everything either.

What’s actually being asked for in response to your assertion “aura” is an explanation for why you think such a thing to be real. Disastrously wrong reasoning, unqualified assertion and ad hominem insults in response though provides no explanation at all.       

I know what I experience and what it means.

I don’t doubt that you believe that to be true. The question you endlessly avoid though concerns why the thing you think you experience isn’t actually something else entirely. Until and unless you finally manage to address that with some coherent thinking there’s good reason to dismiss your assertions out of hand.

[Sriram]

Hold on guys..! 

When I feel (and sometimes see) energy movement around me why would I think it is something other than what it is?  More so when it has been confirmed by other people experiencing a similar thing? It also works very well in terms of my body and mental state at any point of time. 

Why are you guys telling me it could be 'something else' merely because it doesn't fit in with your world view?  Why should I wait for someone to invent a aura meter to tell me that indeed I am experiencing an aura...! That is ridiculous! Personal experiences need not be doubted to THAT extent. We don't need meters and instruments for everything.

Science may not have identified what it is...so what?  It didn't identify gravity waves for so many years, does not mean it did not exist. It'll probably get there by and by.

I agree that if we personally don't experience something, we tend to doubt it, but there is a limit to skepticism. Compulsive skepticism can be dysfunctional.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Hold on guys..! 

When I feel (and sometimes see) energy movement around me why would I think it is something other than what it is?

You’ve overreached again. What you should say there is, “what I think that it is”. Whether it actually is that thing is the point here.

More so when it has been confirmed by other people experiencing a similar thing?

First it hasn’t been “confirmed” at all. What you meant to say there was that some people with the same enculturating influences as you think that it’s the same thing that you think it is. Funnily enough, the incidence of the same causal attribution is much less in societies without those cultural memes. Why do you suppose that is?

Second, countless peoples in countless societies have believed things to be real that turned out to be no such thing, like tree spirits. What makes this specific belief so special?

Third, yet again you’ve collapsed into a logical fallacy – the argumentum ad populum.   

It also works very well in terms of my body and mental state at any point of time.

So does my belief in leprechauns. What on earth has that to do though with whether either auras or leprechauns are real? 

Why are you guys telling me it could be 'something else' merely because it doesn't fit in with your world view?

More dishonesty. You’re being told that it could be something else because it could be something else, not because of a world view. Do you think my experience of leprechauns could be something else because of your world view too? Why not?

Why should I wait for someone to invent a aura meter to tell me that indeed I am experiencing an aura...! That is ridiculous! Personal experiences need not be doubted to THAT extent. We don't need meters and instruments for everything.

You should wait for sound reasoning or evidence because without either you have no means to verify the claim, either to others or to yourself. You’re just guessing. 

Science may not have identified what it is...so what?  It didn't identify gravity waves for so many years, does not mean it did not exist. It'll probably get there by and by.

You’ve had this stupidity explained to you many times now, so why do you repeat it? That lots of things weren’t discovered and then were discovered tells you absolutely nothing about whether auras (or leprechauns) are real. The status “might be” for your claims cannot be changed because different phenomena have been found to be an “is”.   

I agree that if we personally don't experience something, we tend to doubt it, but there is a limit to skepticism. Compulsive skepticism can be dysfunctional.

You’ve missed it again. It’s not that you “personally don't experience something”, it’s that you have no means to verify what that something is.

Look, you’re clearly not much of a thinker and I don’t blame you for that (though your dishonesty is another matter). These arguments that undo you are very simple though, so you have no excuse for not at least trying to deal with them rather than ignore them in favour of repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

What’s stopping you?

[Stranger]

Sriram,

Why do you keep avoiding what is actually being said to you? What are you afraid of?

When I feel (and sometimes see) energy movement around me why would I think it is something other than what it is?

What it is, is (by your own admission) a subjective experience - not "energy movement", that is how you interpret it.

More so when it has been confirmed by other people experiencing a similar thing?

So why has every attempt to objectively confirm people's claims about being able to sense auras failed? If you were actually gathering information from the real world - why do all the tests fail?

Why are you guys telling me it could be 'something else' merely because it doesn't fit in with your world view?

Are you claiming to read minds too? If not, how about reading what has actually been said, instead of defensively jumping to conclusions?

I agree that if we personally don't experience something, we tend to doubt it, but there is a limit to skepticism. Compulsive skepticism can be dysfunctional.

We aren't questioning your experience - just your interpretation of it.

Do try to pay attention, please.

[Sriram]

Ok....thanks.

Cheers.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Ok....thanks.

Cheers.

Once again people here take the time and trouble to explain to you where you go wrong, and in response you just run away.

What are you so afraid of exactly?

[ekim]

Although the causes of aural migraines are only partly understood, they seem to be associated with some sort of electrical wave which interferes with the signals from the visual cortex.

Thanks for your reply.   Compared to you, it has happened relatively recently to me and it takes the form of black and white rotating zigzag lines and my optician told me it was nothing to do my eyes but more associated with migraines.  As I don't get headaches, migraines didn't feature in my thoughts about it.  As regards a spiritual explanation, I suppose it could be the Gates of Hell beckoning me because of the sinful life I have led.  I've tried to discover if there is a common event which triggers them but to no avail.  You mention electrical waves, I did wonder with all the variety of transmitters about if I might be sensitive to certain electromagnetic waves.  If so, I'm not getting a very good reception and its only in black and white, but I'm not yet at the stage where I need to go around wearing a metal foil helmet, a kind of reverse of Persinger's helmet.  However, I do find that I can quickly slip into meditation mode and the sensations quickly disappear.

[ippy]

Hold on guys..! 

When I feel (and sometimes see) energy movement around me why would I think it is something other than what it is?  More so when it has been confirmed by other people experiencing a similar thing? It also works very well in terms of my body and mental state at any point of time. 

Why are you guys telling me it could be 'something else' merely because it doesn't fit in with your world view?  Why should I wait for someone to invent a aura meter to tell me that indeed I am experiencing an aura...! That is ridiculous! Personal experiences need not be doubted to THAT extent. We don't need meters and instruments for everything.

Science may not have identified what it is...so what?  It didn't identify gravity waves for so many years, does not mean it did not exist. It'll probably get there by and by.

I agree that if we personally don't experience something, we tend to doubt it, but there is a limit to skepticism. Compulsive skepticism can be dysfunctional.

Just a thought Sriram, I was wondering this energy you think you're perceiving, it isn't dynamic, is it?

I think a lot of us here on this forum would like if this is so.

Cheers