'Why are menstruating women in India removing their wombs? '

[Nearly Sane]

The oppression of women continues


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48836690

[Walter]

The oppression of women continues


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-48836690

horrendous !

However it is impossible to raise the IQ of the general population therefor higher IQ people will dominate them !

[Harrowby Hall]

I don't see what IQ has to do with this, Walter. This is a problem which stems from power and from cultural norms. The people with power are not necessarily those with the highest level of intelligence (or who score highly in IQ tests - not quite the same thing).

[Walter]

I don't see what IQ has to do with this, Walter. This is a problem which stems from power and from cultural norms. The people with power are not necessarily those with the highest level of intelligence (or who score highly in IQ tests - not quite the same thing).

Well HH
I think IQ has everything to do with it and that's why cultural norms have been allowed to prevail . So don't give me that IQ tests nonsense

no offence 

[jeremyp]

Well HH
I think IQ has everything to do with it and that's why cultural norms have been allowed to prevail . So don't give me that IQ tests nonsense

no offence 

What studies have been done that show the IQs of the women being exploited are lower than the iQs of the people (probably men) who exploit them?

[Walter]

What studies have been done that show the IQs of the women being exploited are lower than the iQs of the people (probably men) who exploit them?

I was making a general point , its there for all to see India has  a lower IQ , perhaps around 82



you can make up your own story around that if you want if it suits your liberal left wing politics

[Robbie]

I disagree Walter, poverty and lack of education combined with culture and superstition is the problem. Quite often the extremely poor of the Indian subcontinent work tirelessly to give their children a decent education and prospects and it works. It wouldn't work if there were so many with low IQs.

If it hadn't been the BBC reporting, I'd have thought it was just a story. It's so horrific. Just goes to show what lengths these poor women will go to to earn a crust.

Young men still allow themselves to be castrated too, a eunuch is protected and has financial security.

None of these things happen amongst the educated middle classes.

[jeremyp]

I was making a general point ,

So was I.

its there for all to see India has  a lower IQ , perhaps around 82

I think citation needed on that one.

you can make up your own story around that if you want if it suits your liberal left wing politics

I'm not making up a story, I'm questioning yours.

[Sriram]

The article is written in such a way as to make it sound horrible. As though people are forcibly pulling out the wombs of young women....or something like that ...!   That is not the case. Nor has it anything to do with culture. Removing the uterus was unknown before safe modern surgery came in during recent decades.

The hysterectomy rate in the US for example is about 11.7% for women between 40-44. About 600000 hysterectomies are performed in the US every year.

Many women in India who have had two children, nowadays seem to prefer to undergo hysterectomy for various reasons. One is to avoid future pregnancies. Second is to avoid cramps and monthly  difficulties. Third is because it hinders their work (and not just laborers).  The above article highlights daily  wages as the main reason, which is probably just a over dramatic way of presenting it.

And never mind Walter...! 

[Robbie]

Thanks sririam.

Media aye?

Walter just likes to be provocative.

[Sriram]

Thanks sririam.

Media aye?

Walter just likes to be provocative.

Hi Robbie,

While hysterectomy may not be the best form of birth control.....many women seem to find it better than contraceptives  or abortions. They see it as the safest way to avoid unwanted pregnancies.

This phenomenon if happening in the West, would have been seen as women empowerment and women taking control of their lives. When it happens in India it is seen as some form of exploitation.

Just a matter of perception.

[Harrowby Hall]

But Sriram, one of the points being made in this report are that women are having hysterectomies to eliminate their menstrual cycles not to remove the chance of  pregnancy. I think that it is the apparent attitude of employers to women's periods that people on this forum are horrified with.

[jeremyp]

Hi Robbie,

While hysterectomy may not be the best form of birth control.....many women seem to find it better than contraceptives  or abortions. They see it as the safest way to avoid unwanted pregnancies.

Not as safe as their men folk having vasectomies.

This phenomenon if happening in the West, would have been seen as women empowerment and women taking control of their lives. When it happens in India it is seen as some form of exploitation.

But it's not women seeking empowerment, it's women seeking not to get fired because they have periods. That's the opposite of empowerment.

[Nearly Sane]

Not as safe as their men folk having vasectomies.

But it's not women seeking empowerment, it's women seeking not to get fired because they have periods. That's the opposite of empowerment.

And were this happening in a Western country to ensure that women did not have period to reduce effect on the work there would be outcry too. The point though is not about India but that it's just another example of the oppression of women across the world.

[Sriram]

And that is why I am saying that the report is biased and hyped to create a dramatic effect. It is deliberately and falsely connecting several different things.

Nowhere in the article does it say that women have been forbidden to work because of cultural taboos against menstrual periods, forcing them to have their wombs removed. That is a false impression that the article deliberately creates. The issue of some doctors not advising the women properly is also lumped in to create an impression of forced hysterectomies.  This is wrong.

Women have been working for thousands of years in fields and in other areas in all parts of India. Nowhere have they been forbidden due to  menstrual issues or been forced to remove their wombs. Millions of women continue to work in all areas of work across the country.

The article only says that women tend to miss work due to period pains because of which they lose wages. They also develop infections due to poor hygienic conditions. So they choose to have hysterectomies. 

[Robbie]

The poor hygienic conditions should be addressed, having good sanitation, toilets, washing facilities and efficient waste disposal would make such a positive difference to the work force. The initial outlay might be expensive but the benefits great to employee and employer. None of us would work in the existing conditions.

[Harrowby Hall]

Sriram   -   you assert:

And that is why I am saying that the report is biased and hyped to create a dramatic effect. It is deliberately and falsely connecting several different things.

This is a profile of the journalist who wrote the article:

Geeta has been with the BBC for more than 20 years and is Women and Social Affairs Editor for BBC Newsonlinein Delhi. She writes news stories and features for the BBC news website and travels through India to report on exclusives. She has worked as a radio producer and correspondent with the BBC World Service and BBC News. Since February this year, she has been working as senior producer putting together ‘Kalki presents: My Indian Life’, a ten-part podcast series by the BBC World Service for India. She worked with several Indian newspapers, including The Pioneer and The Calcutta Telegraph, before joining the BBC.

This profile gives me the confidence to accept what she writes as probably accurate. On what evidence are you able to condemn it as "biased and hyped"?

India is a country with a population twenty times that of the United Kingdom it has a greater range of affluence and poverty than does the United Kingdom and several times the cultural diversity. It should not be surprising that there could be areas where the standards of behaviour towards women falls short of what reasonable people expect. The article names the areas where the practices are prevalent.

You are an intelligent, articulate and cultured man who - for me, and I suspect others on this forum - presents the face of India and enlightens and educates me. I read your submissions eagerly. You are clearly affronted - understandably - when your country is presented in a less than favourable light. But no country is perfect but you always seem to condemn such presentations as inaccurate and malicious.

I was ashamed to learn last week that, in the area of England where I live, 400 people had been kept in conditions of slavery. People had been enticed into the country from eastern Europe and then housed in squalor and used for the enrichment and gratification of others - and that this had gone on for a number of years - apparently undetected. Nowhere is perfect.

[Nearly Sane]

Great post, HH. Although this story is based on India, it is as I mentioned in the OP about the oppression of women to my mind. That said it could be about the effects of human greed through the prism of the capitalist system and aggressive business practices which would the in with slavery example you raised.

While I think there has been some progress in people's rights, it is neither linear nor guaranteed to remain. Technology or advances in medicine can be used in a regressive manner such as here with the use of hysterectomy to increase productivity. Instead of supporting women, it uses the operation to reduce their choices.

[Sriram]

Sriram   -   you assert:

This is a profile of the journalist who wrote the article:

This profile gives me the confidence to accept what she writes as probably accurate. On what evidence are you able to condemn it as "biased and hyped"?

India is a country with a population twenty times that of the United Kingdom it has a greater range of affluence and poverty than does the United Kingdom and several times the cultural diversity. It should not be surprising that there could be areas where the standards of behaviour towards women falls short of what reasonable people expect. The article names the areas where the practices are prevalent.

You are an intelligent, articulate and cultured man who - for me, and I suspect others on this forum - presents the face of India and enlightens and educates me. I read your submissions eagerly. You are clearly affronted - understandably - when your country is presented in a less than favourable light. But no country is perfect but you always seem to condemn such presentations as inaccurate and malicious.

I was ashamed to learn last week that, in the area of England where I live, 400 people had been kept in conditions of slavery. People had been enticed into the country from eastern Europe and then housed in squalor and used for the enrichment and gratification of others - and that this had gone on for a number of years - apparently undetected. Nowhere is perfect.

Hi HH,

Thanks for your kind words. 

The point is not about what is happening in India. Lots of things are happening, good and bad, and it will take an eternity to discuss all those things in detail. 

My point is that the reporter has deliberately introduced cultural taboos on menstruation in the beginning of the article and then gone on to  report on an issue that has nothing to do with cultural taboos.  She is making a connection that is not there. It is hype.

Few women (in one small part of India) are choosing hysterectomy (rightly or wrongly) as a solution for their work problems.  That is what it is about. It has nothing to do with cultural taboos on menstruation.

Most reporters from India who work for BBC and such other organisations, write  keeping their white British readership in mind and deliberately highlight and twist issues so as to make them appear darker and more oppressive than they really are. It has that colonial 'By Jove! we must civilize these people somehow' ring about it  that is archaic and is an outdated perception of India.  Walter being an example of it! 

Cheers.

Sriram

[Sriram]

The poor hygienic conditions should be addressed, having good sanitation, toilets, washing facilities and efficient waste disposal would make such a positive difference to the work force. The initial outlay might be expensive but the benefits great to employee and employer. None of us would work in the existing conditions.

Hi Robbie,

As HH has pointed out, India is a very large country with a population of 1.3 billion. About 90% of the population in the 1960's was in poverty. Much development has happened since then but the population has quadrupled meanwhile.  Today the poverty level is 22% but that is a huge number in absolute terms.

Everyone wants to solve these problems...but in real terms it is a huge task that will probably take few more generations. It involves building infrastructure, education, creating jobs besides many other issues.

You will find that even a rich country like the US  is finding it difficult to solve  its relatively low levels of homelessness and poverty.

[jeremyp]

Nowhere in the article does it say that women have been forbidden to work because of cultural taboos against menstrual periods, forcing them to have their wombs removed. That is a false impression that the article deliberately creates.

How does the article create an impression when, as you say, it doesn't say anything about the specific impression? Are you not creating a straw man?

The article only says that women tend to miss work due to period pains because of which they lose wages.

No it says they have to pay a penalty if they miss work, not that they lose wages.

They also develop infections due to poor hygienic conditions. So they choose to have hysterectomies.

Why are their poor hygienic conditions? Shouldn't the employers be ensuring that conditions are fit for humans?

Nobody is claiming employers are saying "you must have a hysterectomy", they are claiming that the conditions they work in - imposed by employers - force them into that course of actions. You have created a straw man.

[Udayana]

The Indian sugar industry has been in dire straits for years now.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/01/india-sugarcane-farmers-cycle-debt-suicide-170115102045731.html

When people are impoverished they are easily duped and exploited and this is what is happening here. Also, remember these women (and men) just work as casual labour - not employees... if you can work you can get some money ... if you can't, you starve.