Author Topic: Secular Spirituality  (Read 10986 times)

torridon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2019, 02:36:09 PM »

That is just what you believe. You think that consciousness is just the result of a process. Life is the result of a process and so on...  Fine..!


it's not the result of a process. it is a process.  Anyone can verify this for him/herself at home with the following experiment : open your eyes and look at something. Then close your eyes. What happened ? What you will find is that your seeing of the something started upon opening the eyes and that seeing then stopped when the eyes were closed.  It is a process, not a thing.  It is a phenomenological interaction happening between different parts of the cosmos that are in a mutual subject/object relationship.  When that interaction stops happening, it is not that it has gone somewhere, it is that it has stopped happening.  When a fire goes out, it is not because the flames have left and gone somewhere.  The fire has stopped happening.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:38:37 PM by torridon »

Bramble

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2019, 03:08:54 PM »
Bramble,

Isn't consciousness rather the awareness itself? 


Yes, exactly.  That's why I queried ekim.

Enki

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2019, 04:31:04 PM »
It maybe that Sriram is using 'leave' as a figure of speech as I think Hindu philosophy sees consciousness more as a universal essence which underlies and permeates life forms.  It is not so much that it leaves that form but more that the 'form' leaves it once attachment is broken.  It would not be described as a 'thing, nor an event, nor a process' but more as that which is capable of being aware of things, events and processes.  As such, it cannot be objectified nor subjectified but by dropping all attachments to objectivity and subjectivity it can be realised, which I believe is called samadhi.

I agree with both Bramble and Blue. The generally accepted definition of consciousness is awareness, a quality which is present in many(if not all) animal species, and all evidence suggests that it is a product of the mind. Self awareness is a more advanced form of consciousness present in several animal species as far as we can tell, including, of course, human beings.

What you seem to be talking about, when mentioning samadhi, is a heightened sense/state of awareness, as far as I can tell, which can be achieved by a variety of methods, including by using meditation techniques.
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ekim

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2019, 04:56:38 PM »
If consciousness (awareness) is 'that which is capable of being aware' then process and basis become one and the same. By the same token we might say that breathing is that which is capable of breathing, which is absurd.

I'm reminded of something written by the biochemist Jaques Monod: “All religions, nearly all philosophies, and even a part of science testify to the unwearying, heroic effort of mankind desperately denying its contingency.” This 'heroic effort' demands that there be some fundamental and eternal essence that is me. As I understand it, in Hinduism this is Atman, which (from Wikipedia) is considered as eternal, imperishable, beyond time, "not the same as body or mind or consciousness, but is something beyond which permeates all these". It's difficult to know whether this is what Sriram is talking about because he says 'consciousness is what we are essentially' and Atman (according to the above definition) is not the same as consciousness.

I think consciousness and awareness are much the same.  The former is Latin based and the latter Germanic based.  I could have said consciousness is that which is being conscious (and I'll add the words you snipped off) of things events and processes i.e. consciousness is the subject 'I' (or to use your word Atman) and the rest are subjective forms and forces like concepts, mental images and emotions, and objective forms and forces like physical bodies.  There are a variety of schools of thought in India and so there may be a variety of ways of expressing what I have said.  Brahman is the universal consciousness/essence and Atman is identical in nature.  Realisation of this is said to occur when there is a merging following the dropping of attachments which go to make up the false identity Ahamkara (ego/self).

Sriram

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2019, 05:31:17 AM »
it's not the result of a process. it is a process.  Anyone can verify this for him/herself at home with the following experiment : open your eyes and look at something. Then close your eyes. What happened ? What you will find is that your seeing of the something started upon opening the eyes and that seeing then stopped when the eyes were closed.  It is a process, not a thing.  It is a phenomenological interaction happening between different parts of the cosmos that are in a mutual subject/object relationship.  When that interaction stops happening, it is not that it has gone somewhere, it is that it has stopped happening.  When a fire goes out, it is not because the flames have left and gone somewhere.  The fire has stopped happening.



torridon,

Ok...so you think of consciousness as a process. Fine! But I don't. 

I think of Consciousness as an entity (don't ask me what it is, how it smells, tastes, its constituent matter etc....I don't know) of some kind. It is the essence of Life itself. Consciousness is just a new word that people like Chalmers and others use to refer to the inner subject or the Self. The essence of subjectivity. I am using it in the same way to refer to the Self (or as ekim says...the Atman....I don't want to use too many Sanskrit words here. You people are put off by English words often enough already...!!!)

Processes don't happen by themselves. Consciousness initiates the process that results in functional interactions.

For example,the process that happens inside a computer that enables us to interact with one another is initiated by the User . The process doesn't happen by itself.  The computer exists only for and because of the user and not by itself.

Without a human user, a computer will not exist. Similarly, without a Conscious Self, the body will not exist.  This is my view. There is nothing in the discoveries of science that makes me discard this view. In fact, NDE's, findings of Jim Tucker, Philosophies of Panpsychism, Max Planck's view, Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, Participatory Anthropic Principle and many other things only reinforce my view.

Cheers.

Sriram

torridon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2019, 06:43:08 AM »

torridon,

Ok...so you think of consciousness as a process. Fine! But I don't. 

I think of Consciousness as an entity (don't ask me what it is, how it smells, tastes, its constituent matter etc....I don't know) of some kind. It is the essence of Life itself. Consciousness is just a new word that people like Chalmers and others use to refer to the inner subject or the Self. The essence of subjectivity. I am using it in the same way to refer to the Self (or as ekim says...the Atman....I don't want to use too many Sanskrit words here. You people are put off by English words often enough already...!!!)


Well it would help if you would stop misusing the vocabulary it causes confusion.  This is what consciousness actually means:

consciousness
1.
the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings
.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"
synonyms:   awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience
"she failed to regain consciousness"
2.
a person's awareness or perception of something.
"her acute consciousness of Luke's presence"
synonyms:   awareness of, knowledge of the existence of, alertness to, sensitivity to, realization of, cognizance of, mindfulness of, perception of, apprehension of, recognition of
"her acute consciousness of Luke's presence"


There is nothing in the dictionary definition of the word to validate your notion that it is an entity.  It is a (typically wakeful) state of mind.  If you are going to conscript 'consciousness' to mean 'inner self' or 'spirit' then you would need to invent another word to describe the state of wakefulness that is the word's correct meaning.  All in the interests of clarity and the avoidance of confusion, you see.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 06:45:18 AM by torridon »

torridon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2019, 06:53:00 AM »

Processes don't happen by themselves. Consciousness initiates the process that results in functional interactions.

For example,the process that happens inside a computer that enables us to interact with one another is initiated by the User . The process doesn't happen by itself.  The computer exists only for and because of the user and not by itself.


Typical avoidance strategy.  Avoidance of dealing with reality.  Where we could be trying to understand how stuff works, this fails by introducing 'user' to contain all the mysterious stuff we don't understand and skipping lightly over the fact that it conceals the depth of our ignorance.  It is just an appeal to magic and fantasy beliefs should not be a proper substitute for real understanding born of hard work and meticulous research.

Sriram

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #82 on: August 11, 2019, 07:13:02 AM »


You can think of Consciousness as an entity or as a 'thing' of some kind or as the characteristic of the entity or thing.   It doesn't matter which. Microscopic hair splitting doesn't help in such abstract matters. I think I have been quite clear that I am talking of the subjective Self that occupies the body.....like a computer user or a person driving a car. 

When Max Planck says...'I regard Consciousness as fundamental'  or 'I regard matter as derivative from Consciousness' ....

Or David Chalmers says...'According to panpsychism, consciousness may be a fundamental property of reality in the same way as space and time. "We're not going to reduce consciousness to something physical ... it's a primitive component of the universe," he said.

I think they mean it in the same sense as I do.  Its just a word....don't let it get to you.  Please try to understand what I am saying.

Sriram

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2019, 07:14:26 AM »
Typical avoidance strategy.  Avoidance of dealing with reality.  Where we could be trying to understand how stuff works, this fails by introducing 'user' to contain all the mysterious stuff we don't understand and skipping lightly over the fact that it conceals the depth of our ignorance.  It is just an appeal to magic and fantasy beliefs should not be a proper substitute for real understanding born of hard work and meticulous research.


Why 'magic'? The subject is a reality. Why do you call it magic?!!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 07:23:22 AM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #84 on: August 11, 2019, 08:02:12 AM »

You can think of Consciousness as an entity or as a 'thing' of some kind or as the characteristic of the entity or thing.   It doesn't matter which. Microscopic hair splitting doesn't help in such abstract matters. I think I have been quite clear that I am talking of the subjective Self that occupies the body.....like a computer user or a person driving a car. 

When Max Planck says...'I regard Consciousness as fundamental'  or 'I regard matter as derivative from Consciousness' ....

Or David Chalmers says...'According to panpsychism, consciousness may be a fundamental property of reality in the same way as space and time. "We're not going to reduce consciousness to something physical ... it's a primitive component of the universe," he said.

I think they mean it in the same sense as I do.  Its just a word....don't let it get to you.  Please try to understand what I am saying.

What you call microscopic hair splitting I might call attention to detail and it is attention to detail that is at the core of scientific thinking and it is this way of thinking that has given us antibiotics and automobiles and refrigerators.  We need to pay attention to detail, sloppy thinking never produced a vaccine or landed a spacecraft on a distant asteroid.  And it is sloppy thinking to casually conscript the ideas of Chalmers et al to support notions of spiritual beings and karma and reincarnation etc.  Chalmers suggestion that matter may have a phenomenological aspect is a million miles away from notions of a complex sentient being inhabiting a body in the manner of a driver inhabiting his vehicle.  I am a sentient conscious being, that is a complex thing, and we cannot say that a fundamental universal primitive, supposing Chalmers is right, is also a complex bounded particular instance of a sentient entity.  The complex derives from the primitive, it is not the same thing as the primitive.  The life sciences have given us insight into how that sense of self arises in a body as it develops and matures, and I see no good reason to casually disregard all that knowledge in favour of the simple superstitious beliefs from earlier times. It is a rejection of the value of education, and of the value of scientific knowledge.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 08:07:01 AM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2019, 08:11:21 AM »
What you call microscopic hair splitting I might call attention to detail and it is attention to detail that is at the core of scientific thinking and it is this way of thinking that has given us antibiotics and automobiles and refrigerators.  We need to pay attention to detail, sloppy thinking never produced a vaccine or landed a spacecraft on a distant asteroid.  And it is sloppy thinking to casually conscript the ideas of Chalmers et al to support notions of spiritual beings and karma and reincarnation etc.  Chalmers suggestion that matter may have a phenomenological aspect is a million miles away from notions of a complex sentient being inhabiting a body in the manner of a driver inhabiting his vehicle.  I am a sentient conscious being, that is a complex thing, and we cannot say that a fundamental universal primitive, supposing Chalmers is right, is also a complex bounded particular instance of a sentient entity.  The complex derives from the primitive, it is not the same thing as the primitive.  The life sciences have given us insight into how that sense of self arises in a body as it develops and matures, and I see no good reason to casually disregard all that knowledge in favour of the simple superstitious beliefs from earlier times. It is a rejection of the value of education, of the value of scientific knowledge.


Consciousness or the Self is the subject itself. It is not an object that can be observed and analysed.  So hair splitting doesn't help.

I am not using Chalmers or anyone else to further my ideas. My ideas are there already. But ideas seem to be converging. Eventually reality has to be seen as it is regardless of which side you see it from.  That is what will happen. Truth will out!   

 

Stranger

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2019, 09:01:39 AM »
Eventually reality has to be seen as it is regardless of which side you see it from.   

It doesn't actually, but regardless, the only way we have any chance of reaching the truth of the matter is by evidence and sound reasoning, not the kind of sloppy thinking, hand-waving, and empty assertions that you peddle.
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Gordon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2019, 09:44:35 AM »

Eventually reality has to be seen as it is regardless of which side you see it from.

The problem there, Sriram, is that if reality is seen from different 'sides' then either reality is more complex that any one 'side' envisages or it may be that the perspective of any one 'side', since there would be more than one, could be incomplete or simply wrong - as was the case for Phlogiston advocates before Lavoisier helped kick their 'side' into touch.
 
Quote
Truth will out!

Possibly, but only if there is a reliable basis to identify what is likely to be true and what probably isn't, like Phlogiston: and even then it would be intellectually healthy to regard all 'truths' as being provisional.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 09:49:54 AM by Gordon »

Sriram

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2019, 10:10:14 AM »
The problem there, Sriram, is that if reality is seen from different 'sides' then either reality is more complex that any one 'side' envisages or it may be that the perspective of any one 'side', since there would be more than one, could be incomplete or simply wrong - as was the case for Phlogiston advocates before Lavoisier helped kick their 'side' into touch.
 
Possibly, but only if there is a reliable basis to identify what is likely to be true and what probably isn't, like Phlogiston: and even then it would be intellectually healthy to regard all 'truths' as being provisional.


Gordon,

I agree. You could be right. Maybe we will never ever have a complete and comprehensive understanding of reality.  Maybe our brains are not made for that. We try to understand things just because we have a need to understand and control....just like any other need.  Having a need does not mean that it will necessarily lead us to a complete understanding or complete control. 

Life gets seeded and evolves spontaneously. No 'understanding' is required at any stage. It just happens. So, we will continue to evolve  and develop without necessarily understanding why or how.

But regardless of that, since we have this need, we will keep trying to understand.  And possibly there will be some kind of a convergence at some point wherein  all  diverse ideas and theories will come together, at least in a sketchy manner, so that we all can agree on what reality is and maybe at that point, we will also know the 'why'. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Gordon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2019, 10:24:11 AM »

Gordon,

I agree. You could be right. Maybe we will never ever have a complete and comprehensive understanding of reality.  Maybe our brains are not made for that. We try to understand things just because we have a need to understand and control....just like any other need.  Having a need does not mean that it will necessarily lead us to a complete understanding or complete control. 

Life gets seeded and evolves spontaneously. No 'understanding' is required at any stage. It just happens. So, we will continue to evolve  and develop without necessarily understanding why or how.

But regardless of that, since we have this need, we will keep trying to understand.  And possibly there will be some kind of a convergence at some point wherein  all  diverse ideas and theories will come together, at least in a sketchy manner, so that we all can agree on what reality is and maybe at that point, we will also know the 'why'. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram

Even if we get to a point where some, or even most, things are reasonably well understood there still remains the risk of unknown unknowns, so that we may be required to revise our understandings: but that doesn't mean that 'why', if asked to imply there is an underlying purpose involved, is a always a valid question since it presumes that 'why' is always an answerable question.
 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 10:28:41 AM by Gordon »

ekim

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #90 on: August 11, 2019, 10:41:30 AM »
Well it would help if you would stop misusing the vocabulary it causes confusion.  This is what consciousness actually means:

consciousness
1.
the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings
.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"
synonyms:   awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience
"she failed to regain consciousness"
2.
a person's awareness or perception of something.
"her acute consciousness of Luke's presence"
synonyms:   awareness of, knowledge of the existence of, alertness to, sensitivity to, realization of, cognizance of, mindfulness of, perception of, apprehension of, recognition of
"her acute consciousness of Luke's presence"


There is nothing in the dictionary definition of the word to validate your notion that it is an entity.  It is a (typically wakeful) state of mind.  If you are going to conscript 'consciousness' to mean 'inner self' or 'spirit' then you would need to invent another word to describe the state of wakefulness that is the word's correct meaning.  All in the interests of clarity and the avoidance of confusion, you see.
The dictionary definition seems imply a 'state' of being i.e. something static and yet responsive, perhaps as one could think of a placid lake being static yet responsive to a stone being thrown into it.  I think the yogic path is not an externalised analytical one but an internalised one of inner discovery where inner stillness (the 'static' aspect) is central and the responsiveness is peripheral.  The Sanskrit words used, I think, are intended to communicate a way of guiding initiates along an inner path of 'Self/Atman' discovery rather than a scientific or psychoanalytical approach.

Bramble

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2019, 11:17:24 AM »
The trouble with conflating consciousness and self and imagining it to be an entity of the eternal, imperishable sort required of the Hindu Atman, is that both consciousness and self are clearly dependently arising phenomena. For them to have the qualities ascribed to Atman they would have to be self-established.

If you look for consciousness you find only its objects because that’s what consciousness is - awareness, the appearance of a world, experience. It isn’t a thing in itself. Consciousness arises based on the coming together of necessary conditions and disappears when those conditions are absent. The same applies to the sense of self.

Selfhood is part of the virtual model of reality of which consciousness is a necessary component, and like consciousness the first person perspective is not based on an entity. Self is not inherent in consciousness because experience is possible without any sense of self.

It’s quite easy to disrupt the first person perspective, for instance through meditation, taking mind altering drugs, or applying strong magnetic fields to the brain. Certain kinds of mental trauma and disfunction may render sufferers devoid of a sense of self but they remain conscious. But even in normal life our sense of self waxes and wanes, often disappearing altogether during periods in which there is just awareness without any sense of there being a me who ‘has’ that awareness.

Talking about the self is difficult because the word is so loaded with assumptions and preconceptions and we can mean different things by it. The innate subjective sense of self can disappear altogether during unconscious periods, as when under a general anaesthetic, but conventionally we would still think of the anaesthetised person as having a self, even if it is currently ‘unavailable’.

Much of our view of self is confused and contradictory because there isn’t an underlying unitary and unchanging thing that is us. We have a sense of personal continuity that enables us to function but we recognise that we are also subject to constant change. Our understanding of self is a little like St Augustine’s understanding of time - if we’re not asked about it we feel sure we know what it is but when we are called upon to explain it we find that we don’t. That’s because we have the sense that there is a ‘me’ inside that is running the show but when we look for it we find no such thing. This can be unsettling and people understandably often look for some kind of solid ground to stand on, hence the need to locate something within us (such as consciousness) to which can be ascribed eternal selfhood. No doubt there will always be a market for eternal life and (for those so inclined) a basis for redemption, infinite personal growth or some other form of hero quest that confers meaning and purpose where otherwise there would be only emptiness.

torridon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2019, 11:24:52 AM »
Good stuff Bramble, no dispute from me there

Enki

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2019, 01:36:00 PM »
The trouble with conflating consciousness and self and imagining it to be an entity of the eternal, imperishable sort required of the Hindu Atman, is that both consciousness and self are clearly dependently arising phenomena. For them to have the qualities ascribed to Atman they would have to be self-established.

If you look for consciousness you find only its objects because that’s what consciousness is - awareness, the appearance of a world, experience. It isn’t a thing in itself. Consciousness arises based on the coming together of necessary conditions and disappears when those conditions are absent. The same applies to the sense of self.

Selfhood is part of the virtual model of reality of which consciousness is a necessary component, and like consciousness the first person perspective is not based on an entity. Self is not inherent in consciousness because experience is possible without any sense of self.

It’s quite easy to disrupt the first person perspective, for instance through meditation, taking mind altering drugs, or applying strong magnetic fields to the brain. Certain kinds of mental trauma and disfunction may render sufferers devoid of a sense of self but they remain conscious. But even in normal life our sense of self waxes and wanes, often disappearing altogether during periods in which there is just awareness without any sense of there being a me who ‘has’ that awareness.

Talking about the self is difficult because the word is so loaded with assumptions and preconceptions and we can mean different things by it. The innate subjective sense of self can disappear altogether during unconscious periods, as when under a general anaesthetic, but conventionally we would still think of the anaesthetised person as having a self, even if it is currently ‘unavailable’.

Much of our view of self is confused and contradictory because there isn’t an underlying unitary and unchanging thing that is us. We have a sense of personal continuity that enables us to function but we recognise that we are also subject to constant change. Our understanding of self is a little like St Augustine’s understanding of time - if we’re not asked about it we feel sure we know what it is but when we are called upon to explain it we find that we don’t. That’s because we have the sense that there is a ‘me’ inside that is running the show but when we look for it we find no such thing. This can be unsettling and people understandably often look for some kind of solid ground to stand on, hence the need to locate something within us (such as consciousness) to which can be ascribed eternal selfhood. No doubt there will always be a market for eternal life and (for those so inclined) a basis for redemption, infinite personal growth or some other form of hero quest that confers meaning and purpose where otherwise there would be only emptiness.

Agreed, Bramble. It makes good sense to me although I doubt whether Sriram or Ekim will find it convincing.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #94 on: August 11, 2019, 03:20:33 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
I think of Consciousness as an entity (don't ask me what it is, how it smells, tastes, its constituent matter etc....

You have just told us that you think there to be an "entity" but you have precisely zero information about that entity. Thus epistemologically there is no difference between the state "entity" and the state "no entity". 

You do realise that you did that right?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 04:01:29 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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ekim

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #95 on: August 11, 2019, 03:26:10 PM »
(1) The trouble with conflating consciousness and self and imagining it to be an entity of the eternal, imperishable sort required of the Hindu Atman, is that both consciousness and self are clearly dependently arising phenomena. For them to have the qualities ascribed to Atman they would have to be self-established.

(2) If you look for consciousness you find only its objects because that’s what consciousness is - awareness, the appearance of a world, experience. It isn’t a thing in itself. Consciousness arises based on the coming together of necessary conditions and disappears when those conditions are absent. The same applies to the sense of self.

(3) Selfhood is part of the virtual model of reality of which consciousness is a necessary component, and like consciousness the first person perspective is not based on an entity. Self is not inherent in consciousness because experience is possible without any sense of self.

(4) It’s quite easy to disrupt the first person perspective, for instance through meditation, taking mind altering drugs, or applying strong magnetic fields to the brain. Certain kinds of mental trauma and disfunction may render sufferers devoid of a sense of self but they remain conscious. But even in normal life our sense of self waxes and wanes, often disappearing altogether during periods in which there is just awareness without any sense of there being a me who ‘has’ that awareness.

(5) Talking about the self is difficult because the word is so loaded with assumptions and preconceptions and we can mean different things by it. The innate subjective sense of self can disappear altogether during unconscious periods, as when under a general anaesthetic, but conventionally we would still think of the anaesthetised person as having a self, even if it is currently ‘unavailable’.

(6) Much of our view of self is confused and contradictory because there isn’t an underlying unitary and unchanging thing that is us. We have a sense of personal continuity that enables us to function but we recognise that we are also subject to constant change. Our understanding of self is a little like St Augustine’s understanding of time - if we’re not asked about it we feel sure we know what it is but when we are called upon to explain it we find that we don’t. That’s because we have the sense that there is a ‘me’ inside that is running the show but when we look for it we find no such thing. This can be unsettling and people understandably often look for some kind of solid ground to stand on, hence the need to locate something within us (such as consciousness) to which can be ascribed eternal selfhood. No doubt there will always be a market for eternal life and (for those so inclined) a basis for redemption, infinite personal growth or some other form of hero quest that confers meaning and purpose where otherwise there would be only emptiness.

I'll comment on what you say, not because I disagree, but to put the other point of view and perhaps keep the discussion going without it descending into the usual exchange of ad homina.

(1) The yogi would likely say, don't conflate, don't imagine.  Atman is free of qualities.  It is just consciousness or awareness pure and simple, but it does have levels.

(2) The yogi would likely say, don't look for consciousness otherwise your mind will jump to those conclusions.  Inner stillness is required rather than inner turmoil.

(3) The yogi would likely say, a reasonable statement but the path is about transcending any virtual model of the self which the mind wants to create.

(4) The yogi would likely say, mind altering drugs and such like are just that, mind altering and should be avoided.  Meditation, or dhyana as we like to call it, is a method used to transcend the mind and its embedded notion of self rather than alter it.

(5) The yogi would likely say, if 'talking about self is difficult' why do so many people frequently indulge in it? .... Perhaps because they are self obsessed and the times when that is not observably evident is when their consciousness does not appear to be observably present.

(6)  The yogi would likely say, mental confusion is what needs to be transcended rather than added to and explanations only serve to confuse more, as does the desire to locate something imagined within us.  A hero quest is another form of self worship and is better avoided.  Whether the end result is one of emptiness or fullness, loss or fulfilment,  might be questions that the mind wrestles with, but perhaps from a position of inner stillness all questions will be resolved.

Bramble

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #96 on: August 11, 2019, 04:11:45 PM »
This yogi sounds like a slippery bugger. You sure he's not a politician?

ekim

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #97 on: August 11, 2019, 05:27:08 PM »
This yogi sounds like a slippery bugger. You sure he's not a politician?
Ah, Grasshopper, do not despise the serpent because he has no teeth for who is to say he will not become a dragon.

torridon

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2019, 06:23:26 AM »

Consciousness or the Self is the subject itself. It is not an object that can be observed and analysed.  So hair splitting doesn't help.

I am not using Chalmers or anyone else to further my ideas. My ideas are there already. But ideas seem to be converging. Eventually reality has to be seen as it is regardless of which side you see it from.  That is what will happen. Truth will out!   


If you think there is a convergence happening between science and ancient philosophies around reincarnation then you are mistaken.

Sriram

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Re: Secular Spirituality
« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2019, 06:31:56 AM »
If you think there is a convergence happening between science and ancient philosophies around reincarnation then you are mistaken.


Why? What makes you think so?!

Convergence is not a small, one time thing. It will happen slowly and is probably an ongoing process. As long as we are able to arrive at a common philosophical base, that should be enough IMO. The nitty gritty will be difficult to integrate.