Author Topic: The prince and the paedophile  (Read 21744 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2022, 01:31:41 PM »
No, but there are factors that suggest he is not paying her because of guilt.

OK. What are those factors?

I find it hard to believe he's parting with millions due to a sudden philanthropic urge.
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Spud

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2022, 01:43:03 PM »
Trent,
The Queen's jubilee, having too much money in the first place?

Aruntraveller

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2022, 01:48:29 PM »
Trent,
The Queen's jubilee, having too much money in the first place?

Given that The Firm has all but kicked him out to insulate themselves I'm not seeing that the Jubilee is a reason.

Having too much money?

Well, yes by ordinary standards he does, but he has had to sell his Swiss chalet to partly fund this remember. I don't think it's quite the case that he had £10 million lying around that he could just afford to pay off someone he doesn't know, for something he didn't do and something he can't remember.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2022, 01:59:35 PM »
Yet, by settling (for, by all accounts, a sizeable chunk of dosh) he has expressly taken action to avoid a trial that would have provided him with the opportunity to present evidence to support his innocence).

No idea what she thinks: but she didn't 'get him to pay' - he offered her a settlement, presumably on legal advice that his arguments in support of his innocence were too weak to take the risk of letting a jury decide.
I might be wrong, but it seems that the 'system' for trial in sexual abuse cases has the difficulty that it is often impossible for a woman to prove her allegations; indeed, the good book says (iirc) that only if a woman is heard screaming can a man be convicted of rape. The system seems to want to find a way to overcome this, and it comes across that peoples' emotions are being stirred up in Giuffre's favour.

If Andrew is up against a judicial system that is biased towards the alleged victim, it may well have been that he would be tricked into saying something that could be used against him. I don't know.

Gordon

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #129 on: February 17, 2022, 02:36:25 PM »
I might be wrong, but it seems that the 'system' for trial in sexual abuse cases has the difficulty that it is often impossible for a woman to prove her allegations;

But we're not going to hear either her evidence in support of her accusations or his evidence rebutting her allegations because he has offered a settlement in order to avoid a trial in which evidence from both parties would be presented: from that one can infer that he and his lawyers weren't prepared to run the risk of his evidence being believed by a jury to the extent that they would find on his behalf.

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indeed, the good book says (iirc) that only if a woman is heard screaming can a man be convicted of rape.

Which demonstrates why this 'good book' shouldn't be taken seriously these days.

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The system seems to want to find a way to overcome this, and it comes across that peoples' emotions are being stirred up in Giuffre's favour.

Really - you don't think that both the conduct of the male party involved, such as his disastrous and tone deaf TV interview, and the fact that he has offered a substantial amount of money to make the case go away aren't being taken into account by people. 

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If Andrew is up against a judicial system that is biased towards the alleged victim, it may well have been that he would be tricked into saying something that could be used against him. I don't know.

True: you don't know, and since the evidence won't be heard nobody outside the parties involved will know the details. That he wasn't prepared to go to trial, having recently said that he would, does I suggest not reflect well on his case. Just as that you consider that he might "be tricked" doesn't reflect well on you, given your apparent patriarchal bias.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 02:47:07 PM by Gordon »

Outrider

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #130 on: February 17, 2022, 03:08:25 PM »
I might be wrong, but it seems that the 'system' for trial in sexual abuse cases has the difficulty that it is often impossible for a woman to prove her allegations; indeed, the good book says (iirc) that only if a woman is heard screaming can a man be convicted of rape.

There are any number of issues in the way both the UK and the US legal systems prosecute rape allegations; what your book of fairy stories has to say on the issue is almost entirely irrelevant, except to the extent that it reinforces anti-Deluvian ideas that deny women much meaningful say in their sexuality or sexual activity.

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The system seems to want to find a way to overcome this, and it comes across that peoples' emotions are being stirred up in Giuffre's favour.

There is little to no evidence that 'the system' is doing anything significant to try to improve the situation with regards to rape convictions; partly this is a result of the fact that it's a nuanced issue being brayed about by some of the least nuanced parts of society, but mainly because there's no significant gain for any of the people with a vested interest in the system to rocking the boat.

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If Andrew is up against a judicial system that is biased towards the alleged victim, it may well have been that he would be tricked into saying something that could be used against him.

If that were the case, but it's not. In the UK, at least, the number of rape allegations to the police have increased every year since 2016, but the conviction rate continues to fall, and the rate at which cases are taken to prosecution has also fallen*. In the US the conservative estimate is that for every 1000 rapes 384 are reported to the police, only 57 result in an arrest, 11 are referred for prosecution, 7 result in a felony conviction and 6 result in incarceration**. Barely 1% of rapes reach a prosecution stage, so Ms Giuffre has already cleared an enormous number of institutional hurdles to reach this point - this is not a system that is biased against Prince Andrew, this is a system that reflects a society that has a tendency to victim-blame women who suffer sexual violence at each and every stage.

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I don't know.

Evidently.

O.

* source - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48095118

** source - https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #131 on: February 17, 2022, 03:13:55 PM »
As a question that's right up there with:

Is the Pope Catholic?

Do bears shit in the wood?

Will Vlad mention secularism this week?
probably not in relation to this matter.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2022, 03:45:34 PM »
probably not in relation to this matter.

Disappointed now.

Go on give it a go. Queenie is the 'Defender of the Faith and Supreme Governor of the Church of England'. You must be able to work with that!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #133 on: February 17, 2022, 04:41:21 PM »
The only relevant fact is whether or not Andrew is guilty, and since she has given no proof (as far as I know), he is still, as far as we know, innocent.
Well he may be guilty, he may not be - we cannot be certain. The 'innocent until proven guilty' is a legal construct - it actually doesn't mean that someone is actually innocent, merely that the law will consider them to be until a particular legal threshold is met. So there are plenty of guilty people who 'get away with it' - able to avoid legal sanction. That doesn't mean they are actually innocent, merely presumed to be in a legal sense as they have not been proven to be guilty. And the reverse is true - people who are actually innocent but through miscarriage of justice, found to be guilty under the law. Again that doesn't mean they are guilty, merely that they have been considered to be so in legal terms.

Does she think that getting him to pay her will make people believe he must be guilty?
I have no doubt that there will be people who will assume his guilt on the basis of him paying her. But again an assumption of guilt doesn't mean he is, or isn't actually guilty. It does impact on his reputation and that of the Royal Family however. I imagine their calculation was that the negative impact of settling out of course was likely to be less than the impact of going to trial, with evidence placed in the public domain.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2022, 04:51:03 PM »
If Andrew is up against a judicial system that is biased towards the alleged victim, it may well have been that he would be tricked into saying something that could be used against him. I don't know.
I cannot see how you can conclude that the judicial system is biased toward the victim in cases such as this. Inherently it is biased toward the alleged perpetrator, for the following reasons:.

1. The presumption of innocence - so the burden of evidence is stacked massively in favour of the alleged perpetrator and against the alleged victim - the former needs to prove nothing, the latter needs to prove the offence took place beyond reasonable doubt.

2. The nature of the crime - typically these cases rest on consent and usually (but not always) the only two witnesses are the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victim. In a case of one person's word against another person's word (she says she did not consent, he says she did) it is a very challenging legal hurdle to get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' that she is telling the truth rather than him (he of course has to prove nothing).

And this is why there is such a low conviction rate in rape cases. Add to that a problematic level of victim blaming (she must have been looking for it, she want a big payout). And also add the situation in this case of massive imbalance in ability to fight the case financially and through influence/power etc.

So as far as I can see the judicial system in most rape cases is biased very much in favour of the alleged perpetrator, and even more so due to unusual circumstance of this case involving people with money, power and influence.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 04:58:20 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #135 on: February 17, 2022, 04:55:06 PM »
.

SweetPea

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #136 on: February 17, 2022, 09:45:51 PM »
Spud, my thoughts: if Andrew was so sure of his innocence, why didn't he sue at the start of this saga.
Virginia Giuffre always said she didn't want a settlement out of court but perhaps she can see that her actions have destroyed Andrew in many ways and that his reputation is in shreds. She was so adamant about her position though, i.e. to see him court, I sense there is more to it that will never be disclosed to the public.
It's just so darn annoying that royalty, those in high places, have got away with their dastardly deeds once again.   
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 09:49:39 PM by SweetPea »
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Spud

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #137 on: February 18, 2022, 09:15:21 AM »
2. The nature of the crime - typically these cases rest on consent and usually (but not always) the only two witnesses are the alleged perpetrator and the alleged victim. In a case of one person's word against another person's word (she says she did not consent, he says she did) it is a very challenging legal hurdle to get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' that she is telling the truth rather than him (he of course has to prove nothing).
I've noted the rest of your post and others' posts. I would suggest that Roberts did consent to being exploited, at the point at which she continued to work for Epstein for two years and accepted money, including while she was over the age of consent. At age 19 she also trafficked a Thai girl to Epstein, a criminal offense.

Gordon

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2022, 09:30:54 AM »
I've noted the rest of your post and others' posts. I would suggest that Roberts did consent to being exploited, at the point at which she continued to work for Epstein for two years and accepted money, including while she was over the age of consent. At age 19 she also trafficked a Thai girl to Epstein, a criminal offense.

Even if she did "consent to being exploited", and we don't know that she did, and especially given her age at the time, would you have any concerns about the validity of that consent given the situation she was in at the time (i.e. she was being exploited)?

Spud

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #139 on: February 18, 2022, 10:23:23 AM »
Even if she did "consent to being exploited", and we don't know that she did, and especially given her age at the time, would you have any concerns about the validity of that consent given the situation she was in at the time (i.e. she was being exploited)?
Yes. Incidentally, the passage I quoted yesterday from Deuteronomy 22 assumes that a betrothed virgin who has been raped, is assumed to be innocent of consenting if it took place in the countryside. It's assumed for legal purposes that she cried for help. Maybe we should assume the same here, but that she only spoke out when she was no longer being paid by Epstein, does suggest she was motivated enough by money to be, at least to an extent, complicit in what took place.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #140 on: February 18, 2022, 10:28:17 AM »
Yes. Incidentally, the passage I quoted yesterday from Deuteronomy 22 assumes that a betrothed virgin who has been raped, is assumed to be innocent of consenting if it took place in the countryside. It's assumed for legal purposes that she cried for help. Maybe we should assume the same here, but that she only spoke out when she was no longer being paid by Epstein, does suggest she was motivated enough by money to be, at least to an extent, complicit in what took place.
Fuck off

Spud

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Outrider

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #143 on: February 18, 2022, 10:42:19 AM »
Yes. Incidentally, the passage I quoted yesterday from Deuteronomy 22 assumes that a betrothed virgin who has been raped, is assumed to be innocent of consenting if it took place in the countryside. It's assumed for legal purposes that she cried for help. Maybe we should assume the same here, but that she only spoke out when she was no longer being paid by Epstein, does suggest she was motivated enough by money to be, at least to an extent, complicit in what took place.

Do you understand what 'trafficking' means? Do you understand power dynamics? Do you get what a conviction for grooming implies? Have you, in any way, considered the circumstances of this in anything other than the most superficial level?

When I cite figures on why rape convictions are so difficult, and attribute it in part to a societal view of women's agency in sexual matters this is the sort of horseshit response I was meaning.

O.
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Gordon

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #144 on: February 18, 2022, 10:46:16 AM »
Yes. Incidentally, the passage I quoted yesterday from Deuteronomy 22 assumes that a betrothed virgin who has been raped, is assumed to be innocent of consenting if it took place in the countryside. It's assumed for legal purposes that she cried for help. Maybe we should assume the same here, but that she only spoke out when she was no longer being paid by Epstein, does suggest she was motivated enough by money to be, at least to an extent, complicit in what took place.

This post of yours is contemptible, and the sad thing is that I suspect you have no idea why.

I'd say more, but I fear if I spent longer considering what you said I'd have to immediately take a shower to remove the contamination. 

Anchorman

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #145 on: February 18, 2022, 10:49:18 AM »
Yes. Incidentally, the passage I quoted yesterday from Deuteronomy 22 assumes that a betrothed virgin who has been raped, is assumed to be innocent of consenting if it took place in the countryside. It's assumed for legal purposes that she cried for help. Maybe we should assume the same here, but that she only spoke out when she was no longer being paid by Epstein, does suggest she was motivated enough by money to be, at least to an extent, complicit in what took place.
   



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Udayana

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #146 on: February 18, 2022, 12:55:29 PM »
...
I'd say more, but I fear if I spent longer considering what you said I'd have to immediately take a shower to remove the contamination.

Exactly.

On the issue generally, Personally, I can't see what difference it now makes if he or she were guilty or innocent of these accusations and counter accusations. The whole point of settling the case out of court with no criminal trial or judgment is to put a lid on matters it is not in anyone's interest to continue to resolve.

What is important is that child/sex/exploitation/trafficking networks still exist and that there are organisations and resources available to try and bring them down.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #147 on: February 18, 2022, 07:42:50 PM »
Court cases aren't about finding the truth - it's a game - in criminal trials it's a game as to whether the defendant's lawyer can create reasonable doubt - that's all they have to do, not prove innocence but create reasonable doubt regardless of whether their client actually committed the crime.

In civil cases there is a lower burden of proof, it will create loads of negative publicity for Andrew regardless of whether he is innocent and these cases can drag on for years and years with appeals. So it will be hanging over his head, and not only would he and his children and the rest of the family find it very stressful, Andrew would have been made to see that his extremely elderly and increasingly frail mother might not be able to cope especially now she has recently buried her husband and has to deal with Harry's anger at his father and the rest of the Royal Family - am assuming Andrew wouldn't want to be responsible for hastening his own mother's death due to stress.

Also, as a member of the Monarchy funded by the tax-payer Andrew can't do what he wants as those days are long gone. Presumably it was spelled out to him that he is mooching off the country and has to do what is in the best interests of the tax payer and the institution of the Monarchy (while it still exists) and if that means sacrificing his own reputation and retiring from public life by settling the civil case, which will lead to people thinking he is guilty of what Virginia Giuffre accused him of, so be it. I am sure Charles and WIlliam and others would have pressured him to settle. After all Andrew was the idiot hanging out with Epstein even after Epstein's criminal guilty plea and conviction and despite all the well-known allegations swirling around Epstein about trafficking under-age girls. Andrew was the idiot who did the 2019 BBC's Emily Maitlis interview where he said he did not regret his association with Epstein.

In 2015, Virginia Roberts said in a sworn affidavit that Maxwell initially approached her while she was working at Mar-a-Lago and offered to provide her with massage training. She was then brought to Epstein’s Palm Beach mansion, where she said Epstein abused her beginning in 1999, when she was 15 years old. She said the abuse continued for several years, during which she says she was passed around to other famous men.

Makes sense for Andrew to settle whether he is innocent of the accusation of forcing Virginia Giuffre to have sex against her will or even if he never had sex with her at all. As there has been no criminal trial it's a he said she said scenario and so Andrew is innocent of committing a crime in the eyes of the law, although he may have been found guilty in the court of public opinion.

Many people who can't afford to pay millions will take the pragmatic approach and settle in such situations where there is so much negative publicity against them. They pay less millions in a settlement than they would have to if they lost a civil case and they don't need to go through a long, protracted civil case and subsequent appeals with the associated huge legal costs. I know I would settle in those circumstances, especially where I have been a colossal entitled idiot, even if I was innocent of the actual sex allegations. I would chalk it up to the price you pay for being a public figure with deeper pockets than the claimant. Virginia Giuffre was trafficked and someone in the establishment needs to pay - it might as well be Andrew if she happens to have a photo of him with his arm around her, even if she can't provide the original photo for examination to back up her claim. In the current #Me Too climate the accusation and the photo is enough to put Andrew in serious danger of losing a civil case (as opposed to a criminal one with its higher standard of proof).   
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Spud

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #148 on: February 19, 2022, 01:55:22 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaqsOL-Nv24
Nope, if you have to sweat to get your point across it means your point doesn't carry enough weight to be convincing.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The prince and the paedophile
« Reply #149 on: February 19, 2022, 02:01:27 PM »
Nope, if you have to sweat to get your point across it means your point doesn't carry enough weight to be convincing.

You are so fucking wrong. There is loads of bastard research that shows the shittiness of your position. Here is one such bloody report:

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.