Author Topic: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools  (Read 3252 times)

Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2019, 09:20:42 AM »
Obviously there are many factors that affect the level of success of any school or individual pupil but at a gross level we can roll up working conditions, facilities and other benefits as aspects of teacher pay.  The school environment and teachers that can be attracted to work in it ultimately boil down to money: directly affecting class sizes and the attention paid to each child.

The amount of money that's available to the school, certainly, seems to have an impact - indirect benefits, rather than direct teacher pay as we seem to agree.

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To some extent these conditions can be replicated using selection but we've mostly done away with grammars. Anyway, a school able to provide that environment and teaching quality on state funding would soon find that only well off parents would be able to live near enough to send their children there!

And that's currently what seems to happen on a regular basis with the grammar schools that are in place, they become a state-sponsored 'private school light', which is the worst of both worlds.  The grammar school concept, where the most academically capable are gathered together for a more advanced curriculum isn't one that I ideoligically oppose, but the current implementation doesn't work as I see it - functionally, however they try to set the format, it's selecting for parental wealth more consistently than pupil ability, and doing so with state funding which I think is wrong.

Of course, part of the issue with the grammar school concept is that there isn't the range and drive for vocational and practical skills over pure academics at the same age categories to engage those for whom academic interests are beyond their interest or capacity.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2019, 09:44:49 AM »
I don't think it is realistic to abolish private schools, nor is it the answer to improving education for the vast majority.

That said I think the notion of 'stealing property' which has been banded about is mistaken. There are already many (perhaps most) schools in the state sector where the property of the school isn't owned by the state. So most faith schools - the property is owned by the church or a related foundation. Same with Foundation and Academy schools. So the same approach could be used were Labour to abolish private schools. In effect the school property remains privately owned by the education service delivered would need to be provided free to parents/pupils.

Where I do think there needs to be change is on charitable status - this is often justified on the basis that private schools make their amazing facilities available to the wider community - yet in my experience where I live this simply doesn't happen. Unless there is demonstrable and significant wider community benefit from the school then I don't think they should benefit from charitable status.

Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2019, 09:56:24 AM »
I don't think it is realistic to abolish private schools, nor is it the answer to improving education for the vast majority.

That said I think the notion of 'stealing property' which has been banded about is mistaken. There are already many (perhaps most) schools in the state sector where the property of the school isn't owned by the state. So most faith schools - the property is owned by the church or a related foundation. Same with Foundation and Academy schools. So the same approach could be used were Labour to abolish private schools. In effect the school property remains privately owned by the education service delivered would need to be provided free to parents/pupils.

That compromise was made with the Church on a voluntary basis, the church wasn't compelled to turn over their properties, they wanted to maintain an influence in child education so they could continue to indoctrinate recruits.

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Where I do think there needs to be change is on charitable status - this is often justified on the basis that private schools make their amazing facilities available to the wider community - yet in my experience where I live this simply doesn't happen. Unless there is demonstrable and significant wider community benefit from the school then I don't think they should benefit from charitable status.

Personally, I think that a non-profit dedicated to education is as charitable an institution as there can be - it's set up purely for the benefit of the children attending and the wider society that benefits from that education going out into the world afterwards.  It's at least as much a charitable work as, for instance, propping up decaying religious institutions or part funding drug research that's going to be used to boost the bottom line of for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

Any measure of providing community facilities or supporting local state education is a bonus on top of that underlying function, not a sticking plaster to try to justify charitable status after the fact.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2019, 04:15:12 PM »
Personally, I think that a non-profit dedicated to education is as charitable an institution as there can be - it's set up purely for the benefit of the children attending and the wider society that benefits from that education going out into the world afterwards.
You could say that about all sorts of organisations, but not all are allowed to benefit from charitable status.

I don't see how the 'main business' of a private school, being a high-end, paid-for educational service aimed squarely at those who can afford to pay is charitable. There are secondary benefits which, to my mind could be charitable (e.g. providing places to those that cannot afford, providing facilities that are available at preferential rates to the wider community) but those are a small proportion of their total business. And therefore the benefits of charitable status should only be afforded on that proportion.

Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2019, 04:25:47 PM »
You could say that about all sorts of organisations, but not all are allowed to benefit from charitable status.

I don't see how the 'main business' of a private school, being a high-end, paid-for educational service aimed squarely at those who can afford to pay is charitable.

Their main business is educating the children of those who find that the state education isn't sufficient.  The majority of private schools are not priced so that only the ultra-rich can afford them, we're a single-income family and were sending one of the kids to a private school when I was manning a cubicle on not much more than minimum wage.  If you prioritise your kids' education over, say, going out and foreign holidays, it's amazing what you can afford.

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There are secondary benefits which, to my mind could be charitable (e.g. providing places to those that cannot afford, providing facilities that are available at preferential rates to the wider community) but those are a small proportion of their total business.

They are - most of the schools I'm aware of do some version of this, as well as support bursaries and scholarships.

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And therefore the benefits of charitable status should only be afforded on that proportion.

Why? Education is a public benefit, as well as a benefit to the individual, it's an investment in the future of society.  Do you think people like Cancer Research UK who are doing work on the part of large pharmaceutical companies should retain their charitable status?

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2019, 04:57:46 PM »
Their main business is educating the children of those who find that the state education isn't sufficient.  The majority of private schools are not priced so that only the ultra-rich can afford them, we're a single-income family and were sending one of the kids to a private school when I was manning a cubicle on not much more than minimum wage.  If you prioritise your kids' education over, say, going out and foreign holidays, it's amazing what you can afford.
Sorry, I don't understand why that should accrue charitable status any more than any other paid-for service that might be offered and taken up by people who don't like the free state provision that is otherwise on offer. Plenty of people make all sorts of financial sacrifices for their kids, but that doesn't mean the thing they are buying must accrue the benefits of charitable status.

Why? Education is a public benefit, as well as a benefit to the individual, it's an investment in the future of society.
True - but that would be an argument for all education providers to be able to benefit from charitable status - but they don't.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 05:02:22 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2019, 05:03:16 PM »
Sorry, I don't understand why that should accrue charitable status any more than any other paid-for service that might be offered and taken up by people who don't like the free state provision that is otherwise on offer.

Like private health-care?  If the companies involved were non-profit I'd suggest they should be charities too, but they are generally run for profit.

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Plenty of people make all sorts of financial sacrifices for their kids, but that doesn't mean the thing they are buying must accrue the benefits of charitable status.

That wasn't the point I was making, the point I was making was that private education isn't solely the preserve of the obscenely wealthy.

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True - but that would be an argument for all education providers to be able to benefit from charitable status - but they don't.

Maybe they should.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2019, 05:18:40 PM »
Like private health-care?  If the companies involved were non-profit I'd suggest they should be charities too, but they are generally run for profit.
Not all not for profit organisations are charities - to be a charity you need to do more than just not make a profit. And in the case of independent schools that shouldn't merely be that you provide educational benefit to fee paying students, according to the requirements they must  demonstrate a meaningful amount of public benefit (i.e. benefits for the public, in addition to the benefits that fee-paying pupils received). But the problem is that an independent school that pays lip service to that public benefit requirement (maybe 5% of their time and effort) yet gains charitable status gains the benefits of charitable status on 100% of their activities.

So for example if you have charitable status then you only pay 20% of business rates, which saves the school (and costs the tax payer) millions. Why should they gain 80% tax relief on their whole site if only a tiny proportion is used for wider public benefit for a few hours a year. Happy for them to gain relief on the party of their business that is genuinely charitable (i.e. not education benefit to fee paying students) but not on the rest.

Udayana

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2019, 05:22:03 PM »
Sorry, I don't understand why that should accrue charitable status any more than any other paid-for service that might be offered and taken up by people who don't like the free state provision that is otherwise on offer. Plenty of people make all sorts of financial sacrifices for their kids, but that doesn't mean the thing they are buying must accrue the benefits of charitable status.
True - but that would be an argument for all education providers to be able to benefit from charitable status - but they don't.

As they are not run as businesses, but are providing education that would otherwise be paid for by the state, I don't agree that they should be required to pay VAT. It may be reasonable that, as charities, their books should be audited to ensure that funds were not directed to uses that were not of educational benefit and that any "profit" is used to provide bursaries.

It could be interesting to look at the maths of imposing VAT: Some public schools could be forced to close (as many parents already struggle to pay fees)  - which would increase demand on state education. If many schools close because of VAT, state education costs could increase more than the VAT income obtained?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2019, 05:33:23 PM »
As they are not run as businesses, but are providing education that would otherwise be paid for by the state, I don't agree that they should be required to pay VAT. It may be reasonable that, as charities, their books should be audited to ensure that funds were not directed to uses that were not of educational benefit and that any "profit" is used to provide bursaries.
And here lies the problem - how do you assess whether or not surplus generated is channeled back into charitable activities. My impression is that many private schools are engaged in an 'arms race' of more and more outlandish facility provision to compete for parental fees.

An anecdote from a family I met on holiday who send both heir kids to private schools. The father has talking about the marketing approach of the two schools they were looking at for their son. Much of this was on the notion that they provided more and better facilities as a key selling point. Apparently (I kid you not) one of the schools claimed their unique feature was that not only did they have swimming pool, music rooms stuffed with Steinway pianos, profession quality recording studio, indoor and outdoor tennis courts etc, etc, etc just like everyone else ... but they also had ... wait for it ... flamingoes. Yup, that's right, flamingoes.

My point being that if schools are to have tax exemptions, they need to demonstrate that surplus is channeled back into supporting the wider public good, not into pianos that no oik from the local community will ever get near, nor ... flamingoes!!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 05:35:30 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Udayana

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2019, 05:43:27 PM »
Yes, agreed. The money they make must be used for education not luxury/status/frippery.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2019, 05:50:12 PM »
Yes, agreed. The money they make must be used for education not luxury/status/frippery.
Or flamingoes!

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2019, 12:46:50 PM »
As they are not run as businesses, but are providing education that would otherwise be paid for by the state,

Hence they are businesses.

Private schools are businesses in the education sector. They are organisations which contract with customers to provide a service. They extract a fee from customers from which they expect to cover all costs - and hopefully retain a surplus. Depending on how they are structured they may be sole traders, partnerships, private limited companies, public companies ... even charities - but charities are businesses, too.

As businesses they are traders ... and providing they reach the appropriate threshold ... they should pay the appropriate taxes.

Private schools are no less businesses as are private hospitals or private care homes or Marks & Spencer. They should all be treated in the same way.
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Udayana

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2019, 02:59:07 PM »
hmm ... semantics!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2019, 08:07:42 PM »
Hence they are businesses.

Private schools are businesses in the education sector. They are organisations which contract with customers to provide a service. They extract a fee from customers from which they expect to cover all costs - and hopefully retain a surplus. Depending on how they are structured they may be sole traders, partnerships, private limited companies, public companies ... even charities - but charities are businesses, too.

As businesses they are traders ... and providing they reach the appropriate threshold ... they should pay the appropriate taxes.

Private schools are no less businesses as are private hospitals or private care homes or Marks & Spencer. They should all be treated in the same way.
I think that is correct - they might not be profit making but they are run as a business.

Private schools have to compete in a very competitive market to attract fee paying 'customers'.

Which is one of the reasons they feel they need to pour surplus generation from their core business operations into the arms race of facilities - that is what they use in an attempt to persuade 'punters' to choose them rather than the school down the road that doesn't have flamingoes.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 09:09:31 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2019, 09:08:32 AM »
Private schools are no less businesses as are private hospitals or private care homes or Marks & Spencer. They should all be treated in the same way.

I'd disagree.  Pretty much all the private healthcare providers are for-profit organisations that pay out regularly to shareholders - I'm not sure on the status of private care homes, but I suspect that many of them are part of larger organisations which do the same.  Like Marks and Spencers, they are in the business of making money, and they provide services to do so.

Private schools, by contrast, typically are not for profit - they provide a service as a raison d'etre, and have to use money to do so.  That, to me, is a pretty fundamental difference.

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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2019, 10:02:05 AM »

Private schools, by contrast, typically are not for profit - they provide a service as a raison d'etre, and have to use money to do so.  That, to me, is a pretty fundamental difference.


Can you tell me of ANY business which does not provide a service as a raison d'etre?

Private schools are business enterprises providing a particular service to customers. They charge fees which at the very minimum cover their costs. If they do not cover their costs then they will be insolvent. The fees they charge will be expected to generate a surplus, another name for that surplus is profit. How that profit is used is entirely up to the enterprise - I suspect that you are confusing (or conflating) profit with return to shareholders.
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Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2019, 10:28:01 AM »
Can you tell me of ANY business which does not provide a service as a raison d'etre?

As I said in that post, the likes of Marks and Spencers, private healthcare providers and the like whose purpose is to make money for an owner or shareholders - in their case, providing as service the means to that end.

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Private schools are business enterprises providing a particular service to customers. They charge fees which at the very minimum cover their costs. If they do not cover their costs then they will be insolvent. The fees they charge will be expected to generate a surplus, another name for that surplus is profit. How that profit is used is entirely up to the enterprise - I suspect that you are confusing (or conflating) profit with return to shareholders.

No, I'm not - a not-for-profit enterprise is obliged to reinvest any excess in the organisation. In the case of private schools that excess is typically used for things like offering scholarships and tuition support.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2019, 10:44:28 AM »
No, I'm not - a not-for-profit enterprise is obliged to reinvest any excess in the organisation. In the case of private schools that excess is typically used for things like offering scholarships and tuition support.
And buying new flamingoes.

While I understand the need to provide bursaries as part of their social mission, in order to be able to do that they need to get sufficient fee-paying bums on seats. And that requires significant investment of the surplus into marketing in its broadest sense. That will, of course, include direct advertising approaches, but will also involve investment in facilities to gain an advantage over their competitors. Hence, the common investment in facilities way beyond that necessary for a high quality educational environment. Sure the flamingoes is at the extreme end (but true) but there are countless other examples.

I have a friend who is the bursar at a local private school, so is responsible for the finances of the school. I also have another friend who is a piano tuner - what's the link I here you ask. Well the latter was asked to set up and tune the 20 brand new Steinway pianos they had just bought. Now there is no way that all but the very, very best budding pianist in a secondary school needs a piano of that quality and certainly there can be no pedagogical justification for needing 20 of them. But it of course looks good on open days for prospective new parents - look your darling daughter will be able to play chopsticks on one of the best pianos in the world ... but sorry we can't offer flamingoes.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 10:47:14 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2019, 11:21:19 AM »
And buying new flamingoes.

While I understand the need to provide bursaries as part of their social mission, in order to be able to do that they need to get sufficient fee-paying bums on seats. And that requires significant investment of the surplus into marketing in its broadest sense. That will, of course, include direct advertising approaches, but will also involve investment in facilities to gain an advantage over their competitors. Hence, the common investment in facilities way beyond that necessary for a high quality educational environment. Sure the flamingoes is at the extreme end (but true) but there are countless other examples.

I have a friend who is the bursar at a local private school, so is responsible for the finances of the school. I also have another friend who is a piano tuner - what's the link I here you ask. Well the latter was asked to set up and tune the 20 brand new Steinway pianos they had just bought. Now there is no way that all but the very, very best budding pianist in a secondary school needs a piano of that quality and certainly there can be no pedagogical justification for needing 20 of them. But it of course looks good on open days for prospective new parents - look your darling daughter will be able to play chopsticks on one of the best pianos in the world ... but sorry we can't offer flamingoes.

If you think it's overly competitive now, what do you think adding VAT and removing charitable status will do to that market?  Now, if someone were to suggest that the Charity Commission should be conducting more rigorous checks, and that schools should be able to demonstrate an educational benefit for such things, I wouldn't argue that in the slightest.

To the other points, marketing and investment: Cancer Research UK does this, it markets heavily, it invests in new equipment for partner laboratories and research centres - and then it passes its findings over to commercial enterprises in pharmaceuticals and healthcare equipment who make heavy profits from it, yet I don't see anyone (and I wouldn't agree with them) claiming that these should not be charities.

I stand by the original position - education is a public good, and they are providing an alternative, better, broader education for its own sake, not for profit.  I fail to see how that doesn't qualify as a charity, no matter how badly some individual decisions might reflect that.

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Udayana

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2019, 11:45:49 AM »

...
I stand by the original position - education is a public good, and they are providing an alternative, better, broader education for its own sake, not for profit.  I fail to see how that doesn't qualify as a charity, no matter how badly some individual decisions might reflect that.

O.

I generally agree with this, however we should really move the discussion on to the basic issues of the education system and private schools and what to do about it - which is not really about charities or VAT or flamingoes and Steinways (20??)

The issue is actually "unfairness": That private schools give an unfair advantage to their pupils over state schools. Is this actually true - and what sort of advantage is it? If it is academic then why can't we use the same methods to bring state schools to the same level? If it is just money, why can't appropriate funding be found for state schools? Or maybe it is something else? If so how can that be addressed?
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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2019, 12:34:01 PM »
Here's a thought about VAT. If the private schools were forced to charge VAT, their fees would effectively rise which means that some parents who currently send their children to private schools would, instead send them to state schools. This will increase the costs of the state sector. So the question is, would the extra VAT income for the government offset the extra education costs for the government.

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2019, 01:31:59 PM »
I disagree with a number of you about the rightness of being able to pass on privilege to your children while a very large number of children in our society are fundamentally disadvantaged in a startlingly unequal system.  If we had a more equal society, like say, Denmark's, providing options for individuals to exercise personal preferences would be OK.  Currently, parents dissatisfied with state provision who are rich enough can save their children from suffering at its hands by paying.  I think this entrenches inequality in society and is unfair.

There would still be the opportunity to give your children unfair advantages over their peer group if private schools were abolished and there would still be inequality due to location and selection policies, but I still think it would be a change for the better.  Standardising mediocrity is not necessarily the outcome.

The products of Eton we've had running the country recently are supposed to be the cream of the crop, aren't they?  I went to a comprehensive in the 70s and I don't think I could have made a worse job of it.  Of course where I went to school "be Prime Minister" wasn't an acceptable answer to the question "what do you want to do when you grow up?"



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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2019, 01:35:39 PM »
jeremyP


Some quick googling produced the following:

The total government expenditure for 2017-18 was £42billion. This works out at £4,700pa for primary school children and £6,200ps for secondary school children.

An Independent article dated 27 April 2018 states that the average fee for one term at a private day school is £4,618.  For a complete academic year this amounts to £13,854. VAT at the standard rate would add £2770. So the tax loss for each deserting student would be about half the cost of a primary student  and rather more than a third of a secondary student to the state. If there was a loss of 10% of the private school population, the VAT income would more than offset the additional education costs.
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Outrider

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Re: Labour Policy to Abolish Private Schools
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2019, 01:52:43 PM »
The issue is actually "unfairness": That private schools give an unfair advantage to their pupils over state schools. Is this actually true - and what sort of advantage is it? If it is academic then why can't we use the same methods to bring state schools to the same level? If it is just money, why can't appropriate funding be found for state schools? Or maybe it is something else? If so how can that be addressed?

There are a number of different elements, some of which are present in some private schools and others in others.  In purely academic terms, there are a number of studies which show that some private schools do manage to establish a better academic performance, on average, than their state sector equivalents, primarily through maintaining very small class sizes, but even that is limited to more capable pupils - that method isn't particularly effective at improving the performance of the less academically gifted.  In general, it seems, there isn't a huge amount of increased academic performance from private education - some private schools are selective, which has a tendency to improve their league-table performance on results achieved, but they don't score particularly well if 'value-added' is considered (although there are a number of debates about how effective we are at measuring that).

Typically private schools offer a broader curriculum - certainly things like arts, music and sport are typically better funded than state schools, perhaps part of the reason so many Olympians and actors in recent years have emerged from the private school sector.

Both of these - smaller classes and a broader curriculum - tend to cost more per pupil to maintain, so funding is at least likely to be part of the issue.  That said, there is also a flexibility private schools have with respect to if and how they teach against the National Curriculum - academies and free schools have a similar freedom, as I understand it, but typically choose not to exercise it particularly heavily except in the area of the faith schools who diverge on RE.

Within the teaching profession - from my contacts with teachers - there are some teachers who would never go near the private sector, but there are significantly more that would, and the private schools tend therefore to be able to pick and choose their staff more selectively.  They don't necessarily offer better pay, but they offer a better employment environment and better working conditions and (tellingly, according to some teachers) freedom from Ofsted.  Having the freedom to pick better teachers perhaps helps.

As a parent, what particularly appeals to me about private schooling is that you tend not to have disruptive, aggressive, bullying children - whether it's because the parents who are interested in paying for education are likely to have brought their children up better, or the teachers are able to more effectively manage the pupils I don't know, but the exclusion rates are typically lower than state sector and yet the issues don't seem to arise.

Overall, I'd say, there's a slight academic advantage for the particularly capable, but there's a better atmosphere and broader education that seems to stand privately education children in good stead.  That doesn't, in any way, justify the sheer rate at which they are over-represented in places like Parliament, the big four accountancy firms, the Judiciary, Oxbridge and the like; in those instances, though, although 'private schools' are accused it is in reality a very small subset of those schools that are overrepresented.  Rather than looking at private schooling, I think we should be looking at the selection processes for those places to see why things are skewed as much as they are.

O.
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