Naga Munchetty - censored or censured ? OR both?

[ippy]

Quite a lot of people from here emigrate, it's not that difficult.
I like our diverse population, it's far more interesting now than it was in parents time.

I'll go with your post Robbie, it's the ginormous numbers of that I've a problem with.

Regards, ippy.

[Aruntraveller]

If anything like suggesting some sort of control on immigration is suggested whoever suggests it is looked upon as on a par with a serial killers by a certain part of our UK population, I really don't know what they are getting at, they puzzle me.

I'm not sure anyone has suggested that at all.

The actual facts are that control of our immigration policies have been lax but the fault for that lies almost entirely at the door of the UK government. It chose not to impose limits or any of the controls that are available to use throughout the EU on migration, and chooses not to cut down immigration from non-EU countries, which is still where the majority of our immigration derives from.
The attempts by some to blame the EU for this situation, Farage et al is a lie. The control is largely, and always has been in our own governments hands. That they chose not to do this in the pursuit of economic growth instead tells you about the priorities of said governments.

What the government is frightened of doing is having a grown up conversation about the challenges that face a country that has an aging population putting an ever increasing demand on public services, particularly health & social care. The allowance of fairly relaxed immigration laws is to overcome that situation as most immigrants are young, work and contribute more to the system than they take out. Now if as a country we want that to change then a hard conversation has to take place about how we do that.
If you think that is going to happen under Boris & co you are quite frankly deranged. The only way it could ever happen is with a complete rejigging of the tax system which again I think is unlikely.

Incidentally I hadn't wished to go down this line but I find your thought on immigration ill-defined and ill informed to say the least, but then threads have a way of meandering - which I don't mind btw.

What I actually find interesting is the racism I see inherent in some peoples replies on this thread due to incorrect assumptions made.

[Nearly Sane]

I kind of agree with your mailing Sriram what you say is OK up to a point Both of my adopted sons are mixed race West Indian and white English, so as you can see race is not any kind of an issue with me I don't like answering questions about ethnicity on official forms etc however for this post and setting the scene both my wife and I are referred to as white people, we both see ourselves as people struggling with life just like the rest of us.

The only trouble I have that goes along with the extraordinarily rapid influx is the sheer numbers of immigrants we now have here, there's no need to quote figures it's abundantly obvious unless you're like so many people here that don't want to see it.

I cannot understand the people that actually refuse to see why leavers want an Aussie points style system introduced here in the UK and they seem to get so extremely upset if you have the temerity to suggest just something as simple as not allowing potential immigrants here to live that have a criminal records.

If anything like suggesting some sort of control on immigration is suggested whoever suggests it is looked upon as on a par with a serial killers by a certain part of our UK population, I really don't know what they are getting at, they puzzle me.

Regards, ippy

lots of words, lots of straw.

[Gordon]

Racism is about race. There could be other reasons such as nationalism, language even perhaps diet, why people are disliked by the locals. 

It is a common human trait to avoid people who are different from ourselves. It makes people insecure. Perhaps it is some sort of a survival strategy.

Even in India, which is perhaps one of the most diverse nations in the world, we don't like it if people from different regions or linguistic groups or diet or religion or even people with a different lifestyle, move into our localities.

We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!

That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not sure anyone has suggested that at all.

The actual facts are that control of our immigration policies have been lax but the fault for that lies almost entirely at the door of the UK government. It chose not to impose limits or any of the controls that are available to use throughout the EU on migration, and chooses not to cut down immigration from non-EU countries, which is still where the majority of our immigration derives from.
The attempts by some to blame the EU for this situation, Farage et al is a lie. The control is largely, and always has been in our own governments hands. That they chose not to do this in the pursuit of economic growth instead tells you about the priorities of said governments.

What the government is frightened of doing is having a grown up conversation about the challenges that face a country that has an aging population putting an ever increasing demand on public services, particularly health & social care. The allowance of fairly relaxed immigration laws is to overcome that situation as most immigrants are young, work and contribute more to the system than they take out. Now if as a country we want that to change then a hard conversation has to take place about how we do that.
If you think that is going to happen under Boris & co you are quite frankly deranged. The only way it could ever happen is with a complete rejigging of the tax system which again I think is unlikely.

Incidentally I hadn't wished to go down this line but I find your thought on immigration ill-defined and ill informed to say the least, but then threads have a way of meandering - which I don't mind btw.

What I actually find interesting is the racism I see inherent in some peoples replies on this thread due to incorrect assumptions made.

i don't see this as meandering much at all. Yes, we aren't talking about Munchetty's remarks all the time but we are talking about the ideas behind what she reacted to.  The tribalism behind them is based on hate. The tribalism behind the idea of liking 'people like us' is based on hate. The tribalism of thinking  that it should be accepted that we dislike people on diet, or clothes, or race is based on hate.

[Nearly Sane]

That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.

And using the appeal to nature fallacy to justify it.

[Walter]

Speak for yourself.

and you too!

[Walter]

That sounds like free-flowing xenophobia.

gordon
The way the world is and how you'd like it to be are two different things .
Acknowledging that is very important

[Aruntraveller]

and you too!

I wasn't claiming to speak for anyone. Sririam however, was.

[Nearly Sane]

gordon
The way the world is and how you'd like it to be are two different things .
Acknowledging that is very important

And saying it's ok to be racist because people are racist is just the appeal to nature fallacy. Is it ok to rape because people rape?

[Walter]

And saying it's ok to be racist because people are racist is just the appeal to nature fallacy. Is it ok to rape because people rape?

why don't we just take EVERY argument to the far end of a fart and see what that leads to shall we ?

[Sriram]

And saying it's ok to be racist because people are racist is just the appeal to nature fallacy. Is it ok to rape because people rape?

You are being very silly.  Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.

Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.

[Walter]

You are being very silly.  Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.

Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.

i agree with you (for once or it may even be twice now) !

[jeremyp]

We are most comfortable with people who are as similar to us as possible. That's the way it is...!!

On the other hand, if we are prepared to go outside our comfort zone, we will reap enormous  rewards.

It must be incredibly boring for you, never risking the possibility of being uncomfortable.

[jeremyp]

I'll go with your post Robbie, it's the ginormous numbers of that I've a problem with.

Regards, ippy.

Define ginormous. What would be an acceptable level of immigration?

[Nearly Sane]

Define ginormous. What would be an acceptable level of immigration?

near 'normous

[Nearly Sane]

You are being very silly.  Violating another person or harming them in some way is both immoral and is also a crime.

Choosing to live with people of a similar cultural background is not a crime nor is it immoral or even unethical. It is just ones choice.

You are being very racist.

[Walter]

On the other hand, if we are prepared to go outside our comfort zone, we will reap enormous  rewards.

It must be incredibly boring for you, never risking the possibility of being uncomfortable.

do you think Sri was referring to himself , I didnt read it like that ?

[Nearly Sane]

why don't we just take EVERY argument to the far end of a fart and see what that leads to shall we ?

  Well we should because it illustrates why the argument is wrong. If you don't want to follow the consequences of your argument, then it falls.

[Sriram]

You are being very racist.

Oh...really?!!!   

Wherever in the world I may have to live...I'll choose to live among Indians...preferably Hindus...preferably South Indians...preferably vegetarians....preferably educated...preferably fairly well to do...preferably  of a similar linguistic and cultural background.  To the extent possible.  That is my choice.

Of course, there will be many who would not want to live in that environment. They will have different choices.  They will choose to live with people similar to them. That is fine.  I don't wish them any harm...! They have a right to choose their environment.

It is absolutely idiotic to call this racism. 

[Sriram]

On the other hand, if we are prepared to go outside our comfort zone, we will reap enormous  rewards.

It must be incredibly boring for you, never risking the possibility of being uncomfortable.

If you are forced to live in India....would you choose to live in localities with similar minded English speaking.... British or European or American groups... or would you prefer to live among the locals who speak different languages, eat different foods and have different cultural norms and life styles?

[Nearly Sane]

Oh...really?!!!   

Wherever in the world I may have to live...I'll choose to live among Indians...preferably Hindus...preferably South Indians...preferably vegetarians....preferably educated...preferably fairly well to do...preferably  of a similar linguistic and cultural background.  To the extent possible.  That is my choice.

Of course, there will be many who would not want to live in that environment. They will have different choices.  They will choose to live with people similar to them. That is fine.  I don't wish them any harm...! They have a right to choose their environment.

It is absolutely idiotic to call this racism. 

If you think that telling people to go home because they are not like you is justified by the above, you are a racist. I am not addressing you as someone from India, so all that is irrelevant. I am addressing you as a person.

[Walter]

  Well we should because it illustrates why the argument is wrong. If you don't want to follow the consequences of your argument, then it falls.

what-aboutery only causes confusion , not clarification of an argument .
It seems to be a tactic of yours in many discussions on here and it becomes very tiresome .
Empty out your toolbox and see what else you've got in there , you are wearing that one out !

[Nearly Sane]

what-aboutery only causes confusion , not clarification of an argument .
It seems to be a tactic of yours in many discussions on here and it becomes very tiresome .
Empty out your toolbox and see what else you've got in there , you are wearing that one out !

It isn't whataboutery. You are confused and evasive.

[Sriram]

If you think that telling people to go home because they are not like you is justified by the above, you are a racist. I am not addressing you as someone from India, so all that is irrelevant. I am addressing you as a person.

You said I am a racist because I choose to live among similar minded people. That is not correct.

If people are citizens of a country you obviously can't ask them to leave. But if you feel people from other nations are migrating in for personal benefits and are thereby adding to the problems in the country you would be justified in thinking that they should leave.

We do that even within our country. If hordes of people from the North or North east or elsewhere come into southern cities (for example)  and take up local jobs the locals do protest. There is more crowding everywhere, prices go up, home rentals are not available...etc. etc.

It is quite simple really. If your next door neighbor has a problem in his home...doesn't mean he can walk into your home and start living there, regardless of his color or language or whatever.   You might accommodate him out of humanitarian considerations, for a day or two but not beyond that. And regardless of your humane tendencies you would be within your moral and legal rights to ask him to leave.

That is not racism. That is just safeguarding ones own environment and survival.