Author Topic: Saint John Henry...  (Read 3749 times)

Nearly Sane

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Saint John Henry...
« on: October 12, 2019, 05:33:52 PM »
I wonder if this is going to be a trigger to married priests, and possibly women priests.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00099wd

Walter

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2019, 06:05:49 PM »
saney,

I've just listened to the interview with Melissa Villalobos and I'm already triggered so I won't be listening to the program in the morning , I might end up smashing my van to bits  >:( ;) 

Roses

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2019, 09:12:16 AM »
I wonder if this is going to be a trigger to married priests, and possibly women priests.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00099wd

I don't think anyone is worthy of sainthood.

Why does making that guy a saint encourage the RCC to permit priests to marry and women becoming priests?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2019, 10:19:37 AM »
I don't think anyone is worthy of sainthood.

Why does making that guy a saint encourage the RCC to permit priests to marry and women becoming priests?

Because  he is famous for having a very strong attachment to another man. The RCC, as with most institutions, all about the politics. Making JHN a saint is a liberal measure. Hence maybe more liberal measures to come.

Roses

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2019, 10:31:24 AM »
Because  he is famous for having a very strong attachment to another man. The RCC, as with most institutions, all about the politics. Making JHN a saint is a liberal measure. Hence maybe more liberal measures to come.

Hmmmmm! I wouldn't hold your breath where that is concerned.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2019, 04:40:24 PM »
I''m not. Doesn't mean that this isn't mood music

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2019, 10:55:44 PM »
Nowhere in the reports is there any mention of the fact that he wrote the poem which, when set to music by Edward Elgar (also with a strong Birmingham connection), became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 06:45:25 AM »
Nowhere in the reports is there any mention of the fact that he wrote the poem which, when set to music by Edward Elgar (also with a strong Birmingham connection), became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences.
That's odd. You would think that would be a way to make him relevant in such reporting.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 10:49:38 AM »
Nowhere in the reports is there any mention of the fact that he wrote the poem which, when set to music by Edward Elgar (also with a strong Birmingham connection), became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences.
I presume you mean the Dream of Gerontius?

If so I would take issue with became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences. Even if you restrict to oratorios, (noting that Elgar didn't consider the Dream of Gerontius to be an oratoio) rather than the wider pool of choral pieces, then I'm struggling to see how you could consider it to be above Bach's Matthew and John Passions, Mendelssohn's Elijah and Haydn's Creation in popularity to name a few.

As a choral society committee member I'm well aware of the pieces that get bums on seats, so to speak. Elgar's Gerontius isn't really one of them.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 09:37:42 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Alan Burns

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 11:57:59 AM »
It would appear that the most popular choral works are all based on biblical themes  :)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
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Roses

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 12:09:51 PM »
It would appear that the most popular choral works are all based on biblical themes  :)

Even if that is true so what?
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ippy

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 12:14:11 PM »
Even if that is true so what?

Probably why they're so boring too!

Regards LR, ippy   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 12:27:28 PM »
It would appear that the most popular choral works are all based on biblical themes  :)
Firstly I restricted my list to oratorios, which are pretty well by definition, the telling of a sacred story which is to be performed in a church, and hence will (certainly historically) be biblical in nature in virtually all cases.

But more broadly classical choral music will also include Opera, which tends to be secular and also sacred liturgical music, such as mass settings, which will also be religious in nature. I didn't include those on my list of most popular, as I was only considering oratorios.

But you also have to consider the context of the time. Composers needed to earn a living and for choral music in its broadest sense that either meant writing opera for a commercial setting, or being commissioned by the various religious authorities to write sacred music to be performed in a church (oratorio) or used in religious worship.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 12:59:04 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 01:01:43 PM »
Probably why they're so boring too!

Regards LR, ippy
In your opinion.

I'm completely non religious, but appreciate any of these remarkable pieces of music, all the more so having performed most of them. And you can appreciate the power of the narrative, for example, in the John Passion, without having to believe in it.

Robbie

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 05:43:19 PM »
I'm not familiar with Cardinal Newman but from what I've read since this thread was started, I am extremely interested! That particular period of history, Oxford Movement etc, fascinates me.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2019, 05:48:50 PM »
In your opinion.

I'm completely non religious, but appreciate any of these remarkable pieces of music, all the more so having performed most of them. And you can appreciate the power of the narrative, for example, in the John Passion, without having to believe in it.


Absolutely.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2019, 05:50:00 PM »
Probably why they're so boring too!

Regards LR, ippy

I doubt you'd know a B flat from a bull's fart.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2019, 06:00:12 PM »

Absolutely.
Been mulling over why I feel that the Dream of Gerontius doesn't have either the profile or popularity of many of the other great choral works, including the oratorios I mentioned, but also all the great mass settings etc such as the Mozart, Faure and Verdi Requiems, Vivaldi Gloria, Great Mass in C etc etc.

I think firstly Elgar's high Victoriana isn't currently in vogue, with much greater popularity of earlier music, including baroque period, plus more modern pieces.

But I think Dream of Gerontius is also rarely performed because it is such a monster to perform - it requires choir, orchestra and soloists that is beyond most choral societies (Messiah is easy as the orchestra is tiny for example).

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2019, 09:38:39 PM »
I have removed my earlier response - it was confrontational and did not actually express my thoughts on this subject.

My earlier intention had been to consider Newman's contribution to British/English culture.

The Dream of Gerontius is - in my judgement - the second most popular choral work written by an Englishman (and I include Handel in this national characterisation).

I was using oratorio as a generalised term. I should have said choral work. The other guaranteed hall-filler is Belshazzar's Feast - ahead of Britten's War Requiem and Tippett's Child of Our Time
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:07:08 AM by Harrowby Hall »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 01:44:55 PM »
I have removed my earlier response - it was confrontational and did not actually express my thoughts on this subject.
I didn't see your earlier response, so no worries if it was confrontational.

I think we are both interested and passionate about choral music so I trust our conversation will develop on that basis. However I would make the point that there is a difference between music we may personally like and that which is widely popular. Sometimes it is easy to conflate the two - in effect a piece of music that you (or I) love and think is a magnificent piece must therefore be wildly popular. That isn't always the case - indeed often it is not.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2019, 01:49:54 PM »
The other guaranteed hall-filler ...
Out of interest - have you ever had to actively bother yourself with what is, and is not, a hall filler in choral music terms.

The reason I ask is that as a committee member of a choral society which needs to balance the books, we are continually thinking about programmes that will fill halls and those which wont. I suspect people involved in running these kinds of organisations know better than most which pieces get bums on seats and which don't. Maybe you have also been in the position of determining concert programmes and predicting (and hopefully delivering) ticket sales but if not then you may not have the best insight into the popularity of particular choral pieces as a 'guaranteed hall-filler'.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2019, 03:44:28 PM »
The Dream of Gerontius is - in my judgement - the second most popular choral work written by an Englishman (and I include Handel in this national characterisation).

I was using oratorio as a generalised term. I should have said choral work. The other guaranteed hall-filler is Belshazzar's Feast - ahead of Britten's War Requiem and Tippett's Child of Our Time
With respect that isn't what you said - you didn't say:

'the second most popular choral work written by an Englishman'

You said:

'[Dream of Gerontius] became an oratorio second only to Messiah in the hearts of English audiences'

Which is an entirely different matter. Your original view, the latter, implies popularity of choral pieces by any nationality of composer amongst English audiences. And I'm sure we'd both agree that if we don't restrict by nationality of composer, and if we extend to all choral pieces the Dream of Gerontius will be way, way down the list in popularity stakes.

Sure if you are restricting yourself to only English composers (which narrows down massively), then sure Dream of Gerontius will be toward the top of the popularity stakes. However I'm not convinced it is as high as you think - and certainly I'd consider your other 'concert length' pieces to be more popular, as indeed would at least one other piece of Handel (Coronation Anthems, provided you mention Zadoc the priest). But there are also many shorter choral works by English composers that I'm confident (including my experience of what sells out venues) are more of a draw than Dream of Gerontius.

Examples
Various Rutter pieces - including Gloria and Requiem
Tavener Song for Athene and probably The Lamb
Various pieces of Chilcott
Vaughan Williams fantasia on Christmas Carols and Sea Symphony
I was Glad and Blest Pair of Sirens - Parry and of course the biggest crowd pleaser of the lot - Jerusalem
Britten - St Nicholas

Now you and I may rate Dream of Gerontius higher than any of those, but that wasn't the point you were making.

Just to note we will be performing in the largest (and most expensive) venue we sing in - our local Cathedral - next month. We'd never consider performing Dream of Gerontius there as we simply wouldn't be convinced of selling enough tickets. The programme (for various reasons) includes one world premier and a second piece that has been performed only once before. Knowing this we needed a nailed on crowd pleaser to ensure bums on seats. What did we choose - Rutter Gloria - why, because we know it is exceptionally popular and people will buy tickets on the back of its inclusion in the programme.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 04:31:18 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2019, 08:26:27 PM »
Indeed - the point I was making was that Elgar's choral piece was providing Newman with a link to a much wider audience than just Catholicism. And a further link can be found in the Elgar memorial window in Worcester Cathedral which includes references to Gerontius which were then incorporated into the design of the old £20 note which featured Edward Elgar.

I was a member of choirs many, many years ago but this ended because my life was unsettled for a while. Later I developed a strong friendship with the general manager of an orchestra (he was my son's godfather) and I observed the importance of filling auditoria.

For several years I have been a fervent admirer of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. Gerontius fills Symphony Hall, Elijah does not. (Both chosen because they both had their first performance in Birmingham). You referred earlier to Elgar being Victorian, surely it was Mendelssohn who was the Victorian ,,,

Symphony Hall is also filled by Mahler 2. Mark Elder considers Elgar to be the English Mahler.  8)
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2019, 08:08:02 AM »
Indeed - the point I was making was that Elgar's choral piece was providing Newman with a link to a much wider audience than just Catholicism. And a further link can be found in the Elgar memorial window in Worcester Cathedral which includes references to Gerontius which were then incorporated into the design of the old £20 note which featured Edward Elgar.

I was a member of choirs many, many years ago but this ended because my life was unsettled for a while. Later I developed a strong friendship with the general manager of an orchestra (he was my son's godfather) and I observed the importance of filling auditoria.

For several years I have been a fervent admirer of the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. Gerontius fills Symphony Hall, Elijah does not. (Both chosen because they both had their first performance in Birmingham). You referred earlier to Elgar being Victorian, surely it was Mendelssohn who was the Victorian ,,,

Symphony Hall is also filled by Mahler 2. Mark Elder considers Elgar to be the English Mahler.  8)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are a little older than me and I think this and where you live are relevant in your views on the profile and popularity of Dream of Gerontius.

First geography - I can fully understand why Dream of Gerontius has a special place in the hearts of people in Birmingham - as both Elgar and  Newman are closely linked with the city. But Birmingham isn't England and those particular links don't apply in the rest of the country.

Secondly age and time - I actually think that Dream of Gerontius has undergone a strange fluctuation in popularity and prominence with its peak in the period from the 50s to the 80s and declining significantly thereafter. So I can tell you that in my part of the world (Hertfordshire, without its special links with Elgar and Newman) over the past decades where I've been significantly interested and involved in choral music Dream of Gerontius doesn't have a major profile and is not considered to be one of the most popular pieces. It certainly isn't a piece that would fill out the big venues (unlike a range of other pieces) and is therefore rarely performed.

So in our 75 years my choral society has only performed Dream of Gerontius twice, the last time in 1988 - and a quick glance at the other choral societies locally big enough to perform it reveals a similar pattern - rarely performed and increasingly infrequently performed over recent decades. Now there will be a number of interlinked reasons for this, but ultimately it affects profile, and profile impacts popularity which makes it less likely for it to be performed - a vicious circle.

And it isn't just amateur performances where this is the case - look at the Proms - if there is anywhere where the Dream of Gerontius fits perfectly it is in the Royal Albert Hall at the Proms. Well you can see the entire list of performances - through the late 50s to the early 70s Dream of Gerontius was almost ever present, performed 9 times in just 14 years. In the past 45 years Dream of Gerontius has been performed just 4 times at the Proms.

So I would say that Dream of Gerontius had a relatively brief heyday of popularity in the post-war decades but that popularity has declined massively for a variety of reasons, not least a general move in public tastes away from the high victoriana/Edwardian feel of Elgar and contemporaries - once upon a time Elgar would be locked on favourite for any vote on most popular English composer, now he'll certainly be behind Vaughan-Williams and probably Britten (maybe even Holst) as tastes change. And the reasons for the lack of profile of Dream of Gerontius in the first few decades after it was written are, of course, well recorded.

So coming back to my opening comment - again correct me if I am wrong, but if you a someone who was strongly involved in choral music perhaps through the 60s, 70s and into the 80s in Birmingham then of course you'll think Dream of Gerontius to be hugely popular and high profile. But if, like me, your involvement has been largely over the past 20 years and not in Birmingham, well Dream of Gerontius has very limited profile in the choral pantheon.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 12:36:36 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Saint John Henry...
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2019, 01:36:37 PM »
HH

Thought this might be of interest - now of course the Classic FM hall of fame is by no means the ultimate arbiter of popularity of classical music pieces, but I though it interesting nonetheless.

http://halloffame.classicfm.com/2015/chart/p/list-all/

So Dream of Gerontius appears at a very credible number 168 and the list is dominated by orchestral pieces, film scores and video-game music. Above it in choral music terms are (starting with the most popular):

Miserere - Gregorio Allegri
The Armed Man - Jenkins
Requiem - Faure
Requiem - Mozart
Messiah - Handel
Coronation anthems - Handel
Ave verum corpus - Mozart
Carmina burana - Orff
Cantique de Jean Racine - Faure
Spem in alium - Tallis
Soloman - Handel
O magnum mysterium - Lauridsen
German requiem - Brahms
Requiem - Verdi
Matthew passion - Bach
Choral fantasia - Beethoven
Vespers - Mozart

Plus there are the usual suspects of operatic music (many of which are famous due to their choruses) which I've not included

I may have missed some - a few surprises, but overall this feels about right.

Also in the top 300 there are further choral works by Tallis, Lauridsen, plus choral works by Vivaldi, Rutter (multiple), Whitacre (multiple), Parry (multiple), O'Donnell, Gjeilo, Stopford etc
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 02:06:30 PM by ProfessorDavey »