Saint John Henry...

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you very much for that. I shall look at the ClassicFM list later (my attempts to click on it were thwarted by the proxy site).

We  have derailed this topic, haven't we ...

[ProfessorDavey]

Thank you very much for that. I shall look at the ClassicFM list later (my attempts to click on it were thwarted by the proxy site).

The pieces are listed are pretty well all the choral works in the top 300.

I have been very fortunate to have performed most of them so know them intimately. There are a few pieces that I don't know at all, such as the Jenkins piece, the Brahms and the Beethoven so I can't comment on them.

But of those I know well my personal favourites would be the Lausidsen O magnum mysterium, which is simply magical. I'm a big fan of the Faure pieces too, although the Cantique de Jean Racine is sung in French which is always tricky. The Tallis I haven't sung (would love to) but think it is wonderful.

Would welcome your thoughts on which of the pieces on the list you particularly like, and have perhaps sung yourself back in the day.

We  have derailed this topic, haven't we ...

Perhaps, but discussing choral music is more interesting that discussing Newman

So we don't completely derail - I wonder whether there will be a resurgence in popularity of Dream of Gerontius on the back of Newman's sainthood.

[Harrowby Hall]

Most of my singing has been in church choirs but I was - for a while - a member of a choral society (which was where I discovered Gerontius) but the demands of finding employment put an end to this. If I tell you that  Elgar's legacy was greatly promoted by four disciples, and that I have been able to hear his major works performed by them it may give some indication of my vintage. The disciples were Boult, Sargent, Barbirolli and Menuhin,

The church choirs were of the Roman variety - settings of the mass - not only plainsong but SATB - motets and other short pieces by Palestrina and Monteverdi and Mozart and others. My knowledge of other pieces has come through listening not performance.

I don't know The Armed Man, but I have a video recording of the piece that Jenkins wrote for the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster - I find it very moving (but then, I suspect that that is its purpose).

I also love the two Faure pieces. The Requiem was performed at Birmingham a couple of years ago. Roddy Williams sang the baritone part and the Pie Jesu was sung by a children's chorus (typical Mirga!) The rest of the concert was devoted to choral pieces by Lili Boulanger. If only she had lived ...

My most recent choral concert was of A Child of Our Time. Mirga and the CBSO then took it on tour to Germany. One of the performances was recorded by DG and will be issued on CD eventually. Mirga's innovation here was to get the audience to join in the spirituals - there was a short rehearsal before the concert began.

[Nearly Sane]

Moderator For the avoidance of doubt, sometimes derails are significant, sometimes not. This is one where it is not. Very occasional mentions of the Dream of Gerontius are appreciated but keep on keeping on.

[ProfessorDavey]

Most of my singing has been in church choirs but I was - for a while - a member of a choral society (which was where I discovered Gerontius) but the demands of finding employment put an end to this. If I tell you that  Elgar's legacy was greatly promoted by four disciples, and that I have been able to hear his major works performed by them it may give some indication of my vintage. The disciples were Boult, Sargent, Barbirolli and Menuhin,

The church choirs were of the Roman variety - settings of the mass - not only plainsong but SATB - motets and other short pieces by Palestrina and Monteverdi and Mozart and others. My knowledge of other pieces has come through listening not performance.

I don't know The Armed Man, but I have a video recording of the piece that Jenkins wrote for the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster - I find it very moving (but then, I suspect that that is its purpose).

I also love the two Faure pieces. The Requiem was performed at Birmingham a couple of years ago. Roddy Williams sang the baritone part and the Pie Jesu was sung by a children's chorus (typical Mirga!) The rest of the concert was devoted to choral pieces by Lili Boulanger. If only she had lived ...

My most recent choral concert was of A Child of Our Time. Mirga and the CBSO then took it on tour to Germany. One of the performances was recorded by DG and will be issued on CD eventually. Mirga's innovation here was to get the audience to join in the spirituals - there was a short rehearsal before the concert began.

Sounds like you are almost the reverse of me - Dream of Gerontius is one of the few major pieces I've never had the opportunity to sing, and I suspect that isn't going to change any time soon.

I'm a big fan of early music too - sang some Palestrina in a recent choral workshop I did led by the remarkably talented Scott Inglis-Kidger (check him out).

I've never seen Roddy Williams live - indeed it's pretty rare for me to be at a choral concert unless I'm singing - but I really like his style. I am a baritone too and when I'm checking out pieces for my singing lessons I always look out for a Roddy version as his singing style is so clear and un-affected, unlike Bryn Terfil.

I've not sung the whole of Child of out Time, only the spirituals where I was asked to do the solo bits - which always terrifies me

If you haven't heard the Lauridsen O magnum mysterium you really should look it out - it is beautiful - definitely a Desert Island Disc.

[Harrowby Hall]

Back to Newman

Another area where PD and I may have an interest in Newman's life concerns his role as a university administrator. He was involved in the founding of, and was first rector of what became University College Dublin. He stated that the purpose of a university was "excellence".

My own academic career: I worked for the best part of a quarter of a century at a place which, when I joined, was a college of further education and when I retired was a university. For the whole of that time I was engaged in HE teaching of Business and Management subjects, at first with BTEC HNC/D courses which in time transformed into degree and higher degree courses.

I refused to allow myself to be merely a trainer of operational skills - I believed that my duty to my students was to help them to acquire knowledge and then understanding and the higher level skills which would be of value to students years after they took up employment, when they had risen to positions of authority.

That was how I interpreted Newman's concept of"exellence".

[Walter]

Back to Newman

Another area where PD and I may have an interest in Newman's life concerns his role as a university administrator. He was involved in the founding of, and was first rector of what became University College Dublin. He stated that the purpose of a university was "excellence".

My own academic career: I worked for the best part of a quarter of a century at a place which, when I joined, was a college of further education and when I retired was a university. For the whole of that time I was engaged in HE teaching of Business and Management subjects, at first with BTEC HNC/D courses which in time transformed into degree and higher degree courses.

I refused to allow myself to be merely a trainer of operational skills - I believed that my duty to my students was to help them to acquire knowledge and then understanding and the higher level skills which would be of value to students years after they took up employment, when they had risen to positions of authority.

That was how I interpreted Newman's concept of"exellence".

sounds about right to me HH .
I imagine there are some very grateful ex-students who sing your praises

[Harrowby Hall]

I imagine there are some very grateful ex-students who sing your praises

I don't know about "singing my praises", Walter, but I often told students that one of the first  things things they would hear in their new jobs would be "we don't do it that way here". We used to have former students who popped in to see us after they had started their new jobs - and quite a few told me that I was right.

[Walter]

I don't know about "singing my praises", Walter, but I often told students that one of the first  things things they would hear in their new jobs would be "we don't do it that way here". We used to have former students who popped in to see us after they had started their new jobs - and quite a few told me that I was right.

as the old saying goes;

those who can, do. Those who cant, teach.

I've found that to be true on many occasions throughout my working life !

[Harrowby Hall]

as the old saying goes;

those who can, do. Those who cant, teach.

I've found that to be true on many occasions throughout my working life !

Not quite an old saying:

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

George Bernard Shaw:   Maxims For Revolutionists (from The Revolutionist's Handbook, written by John Tanner, a character in Shaw's play Man and Superman)

[Walter]

Not quite an old saying:

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.

George Bernard Shaw:   Maxims For Revolutionists (from The Revolutionist's Handbook, written by John Tanner, a character in Shaw's play Man and Superman)

you've inadvertently just proved my point HH 

[ProfessorDavey]

Back to Newman

Another area where PD and I may have an interest in Newman's life concerns his role as a university administrator. He was involved in the founding of, and was first rector of what became University College Dublin. He stated that the purpose of a university was "excellence".

My own academic career: I worked for the best part of a quarter of a century at a place which, when I joined, was a college of further education and when I retired was a university. For the whole of that time I was engaged in HE teaching of Business and Management subjects, at first with BTEC HNC/D courses which in time transformed into degree and higher degree courses.

I refused to allow myself to be merely a trainer of operational skills - I believed that my duty to my students was to help them to acquire knowledge and then understanding and the higher level skills which would be of value to students years after they took up employment, when they had risen to positions of authority.

That was how I interpreted Newman's concept of"exellence".

One of my research team is off to take an academic position at UCD in January - will be sad to see him go.

I've always had a frustration with this perceived divide between 'academic' and 'vocational' and the view that proper universities do the former - particularly when it is pointed out that many of our top universities are recognised for their Medicine (vocational), Dentistry (vocational), Veterinary (vocational), Engineering (vocational) and Law (vocational) departments!

To my mind all study should include elements that are academic and also transferable and therefore vocational even if the main qualification topic seems far from vocational. Most degrees will develop critical thinking, writing skills, communication skills etc, etc even if there are rather few jobs specifically for ancient historians, as an example.

[Harrowby Hall]

I well recall an American television series called The Paper Chase. It was about the progress of a very bright young man through the Harvard School of Law, and in particular, his relationship with Professor kingsfield, who taught Contract Law (and also with Kingsfield's daughter - but I digress). Kingsfield's teaching method was distinctly Socratic. He also claimed "You teach yourselves the law. I teach you to think."

As for the students doing Ancient History, or English or Welsh Culture ... or even Media Studies! Whatever. My view has always been that it does not matter subject a student is following providing he or she acquires high level cognitive skills - the abilities to analyse and evaluate, to adapt, to convince and to create. The subject area is the context within which high level skills are developed. These are the skills that are required in strategic activities. For the most part, operational skill training is the responsibility of the employer.

[Nearly Sane]

Ah, contracts! How I miss thee not.

[Harrowby Hall]

I was talking today to a friend, now retired, who used to work at Newman University, in Birmingham. She, along with other members of staff, attended the beatification ceremony, at which Pope Benedict XVI officiated, in Birmingham nine years ago. She did not know whether the university's name would be changed to reflect the change in status.

[ProfessorDavey]

I was talking today to a friend, now retired, who used to work at Newman University, in Birmingham. She, along with other members of staff, attended the beatification ceremony, at which Pope Benedict XVI officiated, in Birmingham nine years ago. She did not know whether the university's name would be changed to reflect the change in status.

Changing the name of a University isn't a straightforward matter and so were Newman University to want to change its name there would be a range of external organisations that would need to agree. For most Universities this involves the Government Dept BEIS and the Office for Students to name two, but presumably for Newman University this would also require ratification from RCC authorities if they wish to use Saint in their name.

Not impossible, of course, but will take time. The University would also need to determine whether Saint John Henry University (for example), rather than Newman University appropriately portrays the image they wish to convey to students etc. Personally I'm not convinced it would.

[SteveH]

Was he made a saint for being a steel-driving man?